Discussion:
OT! OT! Hard Drive Cloning
(too old to reply)
Jim Thompson
2004-01-11 17:20:56 UTC
Permalink
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?

I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Bob
2004-01-11 17:27:57 UTC
Permalink
PowerQuest Drive Image is an excellent choice.

Bob

Jim Thompson <***@example.com> wrote:
:I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
:best hard drive cloning software?
:
:I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
:copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
:;-)
:
: ...Jim Thompson
:--
:| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
:| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
:| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
:| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
:| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
:| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
:
:I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Keith R. Williams
2004-01-13 02:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
PowerQuest Drive Image is an excellent choice.
Yucky poo! PQDI is a horrible package and too limited.
PowerQuest's (same company : the 'PQ" part") Partion Magic is far
more flexible and works much better.

Forget PQDI, or "DriveCopy". They're limited function tools
intended only to enhance PQ's revenue.
--
Keith
a***@MIX.COM
2004-01-13 04:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
PowerQuest Drive Image is an excellent choice.
It once was. 7.0 is crap though. So is 7.1.

If I had more time I'd get in the details, that
will be probably later this week.

Billy Y..
Martin Riddle
2004-01-11 17:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Any partitioning software should have a clone feature as well as fixing file
paths. Its good to have too with the larger drives and if you want to try
another os. They even have boot managers.

You can also check the manufacturers web site. WD doesnt but others may.

Cheers
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
j.b. miller
2004-01-11 18:12:38 UTC
Permalink
I've got both C and D in removable trays,setup as masters. Every once in a
while I use XXCOPY to 'clone C to D.
Having the drives in trays means I can pullout D ,put into C's place and be
'up and running' in 5 minutes or less.
This system has been in use for about 6 years.

fwiw
jay
Ross Mac
2004-01-12 15:43:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by j.b. miller
I've got both C and D in removable trays,setup as masters. Every once in a
while I use XXCOPY to 'clone C to D.
Having the drives in trays means I can pullout D ,put into C's place and be
'up and running' in 5 minutes or less.
This system has been in use for about 6 years.
fwiw
jay
I have my system setup this way too...works great and in the event of a
total loss, you are back up and running in moments....I use Norton Ghost
2003 and it copies at about 1.8 gig a minute......Ross
Dave Baker
2004-01-13 02:43:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross Mac
Post by j.b. miller
I've got both C and D in removable trays,setup as masters. Every once in a
while I use XXCOPY to 'clone C to D.
Having the drives in trays means I can pullout D ,put into C's place and be
'up and running' in 5 minutes or less.
This system has been in use for about 6 years.
I have my system setup this way too...works great and in the event of a
total loss, you are back up and running in moments....I use Norton Ghost
2003 and it copies at about 1.8 gig a minute......Ross
I had a 6 GB drive partitioned into 2 partitions, one with Win98 (1 GB) & one
with WinXP (5 GB), with a dual boot facility.

I just migrated the whole lot across to a new 30 GB hard drive, and Ghost
2003 happily did the lot in less than 15 minutes of my time, even resizing my
partitions to 5 GB & 25 GB automatically (but allowing me to change them).
Dual boot functionality was preserved. All very easy.

Dave
a***@MIX.COM
2004-01-14 16:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Baker
I had a 6 GB drive partitioned into 2 partitions, one with Win98 (1 GB) & one
with WinXP (5 GB)
This is exactly the sort of situation that will make one
seriously regret using DI to attempt to make a copy......

Billy Y..
Product developer
2004-01-14 06:37:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross Mac
Post by j.b. miller
I've got both C and D in removable trays,setup as masters. Every once in a
while I use XXCOPY to 'clone C to D.
Having the drives in trays means I can pullout D ,put into C's place and
be
Post by j.b. miller
'up and running' in 5 minutes or less.
This system has been in use for about 6 years.
fwiw
jay
I have my system setup this way too...works great and in the event of a
total loss, you are back up and running in moments....I use Norton Ghost
2003 and it copies at about 1.8 gig a minute......Ross
Norton Ghost is a life saver! A clone a day keeps the shrink away.
unknown
2004-01-14 19:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Product developer
Post by j.b. miller
I've got both C and D in removable trays,setup as masters. Every once in a
Norton Ghost is a life saver! A clone a day keeps the shrink away.
Except I've never been able to get Ghost to work on the USB external
ide drive, nor to copy from 1 small (1.8gb) drive to a large (8 gb or
better) drive and have the whole drive capacity available. I finally
gave up and resorted to Fdisking and formatting the drive, the
XXcopying the data and OS across. A couple extra steps, but I preserve
my sanity. ANYTHING from Symantec is a royal pain in the posterior -
particularly if you need what they have the gall to call "support".
Keith R. Williams
2004-01-13 02:42:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by j.b. miller
I've got both C and D in removable trays,setup as masters. Every once in a
while I use XXCOPY to 'clone C to D.
Good grief *NO*! THese utilities dont' keep the LFN/SFN links
coherent. Get some *real* repartitioning software line
PartitionMagic!
Post by j.b. miller
Having the drives in trays means I can pullout D ,put into C's place and be
'up and running' in 5 minutes or less.
This system has been in use for about 6 years.
You're *very* lucky. Don't do this at home!
--
Keith
unknown
2004-01-11 18:32:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:20:56 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
Use XXcopy. Blows Norton Ghost away. And it is free.
Ralph Wade Phillips
2004-01-13 04:03:49 UTC
Permalink
Howdy!
Post by unknown
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:20:56 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
Use XXcopy. Blows Norton Ghost away. And it is free.
For certain things, yes. For others, no.

They do not directly compete with each other.

And, add for your consideration - how do you get XXCOPY to clone an
NTFS partition?

Plus - make that "free for personal usage under certain
restrictions." More on their web page at http://www.xxcopy.com for those
interested.

RwP - who owns a 5 user license for XXCOPY and uses it about once
every other day ...




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m***@meme.ca
2004-01-17 01:09:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Use XXcopy. Blows Norton Ghost away. And it is free.
That's just plain silly!

As far as I can tell, XXcopy cannot archive an entire drive partition
(or hard drive) into a single, highly compressed image(s) to be stored
on a CD-ROM. Also, as far as I can tell, XXcopy cannot duplicate an
entire hard drive to another, re-size the partitions and still be
bootable for *any* operating system. And finally, I know that XXCopy
cannot duplicate an entire hard drive (say 20gb) in about 15 minutes
and without reading a manual to figure about the 200+ command line
options.

You can do all this with Ghost and Power Quest Drive Image. Although
I use Ghost, I'm not saying Drive Image is inferior BUT XXCopy is
definitely inferior for most applications as it's simply an enhanced
version of MS xcopy.

SDC
Post by unknown
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:20:56 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
Use XXcopy. Blows Norton Ghost away. And it is free.
unknown
2004-01-17 02:20:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@meme.ca
Post by unknown
Use XXcopy. Blows Norton Ghost away. And it is free.
That's just plain silly!
As far as I can tell, XXcopy cannot archive an entire drive partition
(or hard drive) into a single, highly compressed image(s) to be stored
on a CD-ROM. Also, as far as I can tell, XXcopy cannot duplicate an
entire hard drive to another, re-size the partitions and still be
bootable for *any* operating system. And finally, I know that XXCopy
cannot duplicate an entire hard drive (say 20gb) in about 15 minutes
and without reading a manual to figure about the 200+ command line
options.
If you are "cloning" a drive you don't need or want a compressed image
- all you want is a bootable hard drive with ALL the programs and data
there and useable. When trying to do this with an NTFS file system and
Ghost, (particularly going from an under 8gb drive to an over 8gb
drive) you very quickly find out what frustration is.
Fdisk and format the new drive, then XXcopy with the proper switches,
and it's done.
Now, when working with FAT16 or FAT32 drives, Ghost works pretty well
- just did one yesterday (3Gb Win98 to 40Gb).
Post by m***@meme.ca
You can do all this with Ghost and Power Quest Drive Image. Although
I use Ghost, I'm not saying Drive Image is inferior BUT XXCopy is
definitely inferior for most applications as it's simply an enhanced
version of MS xcopy.
SDC
Post by unknown
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:20:56 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
Use XXcopy. Blows Norton Ghost away. And it is free.
Ralph Wade Phillips
2004-01-17 17:55:32 UTC
Permalink
Howdy!
Post by m***@meme.ca
Post by unknown
Use XXcopy. Blows Norton Ghost away. And it is free.
That's just plain silly!
As far as I can tell, XXcopy cannot archive an entire drive partition
(or hard drive) into a single, highly compressed image(s) to be stored
on a CD-ROM. Also, as far as I can tell, XXcopy cannot duplicate an
Sure can't. But there IS BING (Boot It NG - at
http://www.bootitng.com ) that can do that. 30USD, but 30 day eval.

Well, actually, it's IMAGE - which is part of BING, but is available
separately, same site.
Post by m***@meme.ca
entire hard drive to another, re-size the partitions and still be
bootable for *any* operating system. And finally, I know that XXCopy
Any? Sure can't.
Post by m***@meme.ca
cannot duplicate an entire hard drive (say 20gb) in about 15 minutes
and without reading a manual to figure about the 200+ command line
options.
Dunno about the 15 minutes, but it doesn't take long to find /CLONE
...
Post by m***@meme.ca
You can do all this with Ghost and Power Quest Drive Image. Although
I use Ghost, I'm not saying Drive Image is inferior BUT XXCopy is
definitely inferior for most applications as it's simply an enhanced
version of MS xcopy.
It is if you plan to use it like Ghost can be used. HOWEVER - It is
worth having all by itself, for what it CAN do.

Such as copying the ACLs in NTFS partitions. Such as being able to
resume an interrupted transfer. Such as ... well, working, dammit!

RwP (who owns several copies of Ghost and five licenses of XXCOPY
... )




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scada
2004-01-11 18:37:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Buy your new HD now, and download the drive copy software free from the
manufactures web site.
oldsoundguy
2004-01-11 19:05:01 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:20:56 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
If you buy a WD drive, there is a very good cloning utility on their
disc that is included with it .. but it will ONLY copy to WD drives.
Powerquest Disc Copy (not cheap) and Norton Ghost (included with the
Norton System Works (usually 9 bucks or so on eBay) or Partition Magic
are the three commercial programs of choice in most shops.
(and some programs such aw MS Office XP will copy, but will have to be
re installed .. some others will, such as Agent will have to be re
coded before they will launch, Windows Trace Remover requires a re
registration ...just a few of things.) You should check for the
lauchability of each program you use after cloning, because THAT is
the time to fix them, not when you need them.
Mac
2004-01-11 19:12:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
Norton Ghost works well for this, although I haven't used it in a few
years.

Another approach is to do a full backup of your system (this can be done
over the network, if you are part of a LAN), making sure you backup the
system state as well as all of your files. The system state is a special
checkbox you have to check during the file selection phase of the backup
process.

Then, you would have to install a new disk, re-install Windows, since the
backup and restore software only runs under windows, (but you can do a
bare minimum installation) then do a restore of the full backup. When you
reboot, your system will be just like it was at the time of the backup.
It's a bit of a pain, but it has the advantage of not needing any other
software and working easily over a network.

I have done this with win2k. winXP uses the same backup software, so it
should work there, too. I'm pretty sure windows 95 and 98 had similar
backup programs.

Mac
Costas Vlachos
2004-01-11 19:23:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
I use Symantec's Norton Ghost 2003, with excellent results. Have cloned
WinXP bootable HDs with no problems.

Costas
Ian Stirling
2004-01-11 19:44:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
dd.
Mjolinor
2004-01-11 21:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
dd.
:)
Jason Wagner
2004-01-11 21:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
We use Ghost at work and its great.
Martin
2004-01-11 21:51:11 UTC
Permalink
I've used Drive Image for the last few years, making a new image of the
primary drive on a removable drive frequently, and it has worked well for
me. On two occasions I used the last image to save my butt. Being able to
replace all of the files as well as the OS saved me days of work.
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Keith R. Williams
2004-01-13 02:42:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin
I've used Drive Image for the last few years, making a new image of the
primary drive on a removable drive frequently, and it has worked well for
me. On two occasions I used the last image to save my butt. Being able to
replace all of the files as well as the OS saved me days of work.
Partition Magic is far more flexible and works just as well for
this application.
--
Keith
Martin
2004-01-13 14:49:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
I've used Drive Image for the last few years, making a new image of the
primary drive on a removable drive frequently, and it has worked well for
me. On two occasions I used the last image to save my butt. Being able to
replace all of the files as well as the OS saved me days of work.
Partition Magic is far more flexible and works just as well for
this application.
--
Keith
Have never tried Partition Magic. I thought it was only good for
modifying, creating or moving partitions on the same drive. The full
C-drive images I keep as backups are put on separate removable drives. Can
I do this with PM? And if so, what would be its advantages?

Marty
Keith R. Williams
2004-01-13 16:14:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
I've used Drive Image for the last few years, making a new image of the
primary drive on a removable drive frequently, and it has worked well
for
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
me. On two occasions I used the last image to save my butt. Being able
to
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
replace all of the files as well as the OS saved me days of work.
Partition Magic is far more flexible and works just as well for
this application.
--
Keith
Have never tried Partition Magic. I thought it was only good for
modifying, creating or moving partitions on the same drive. The full
C-drive images I keep as backups are put on separate removable drives. Can
I do this with PM? And if so, what would be its advantages?
Sure. The biggest advantage (of PQMagic) is being able to change the
size on the fly. Your backup doesn't have to be a full-sized
partition. One can also move partitions around on a disk (sometimes
interesting).

The other big advantage is that I use PQMagic for other things and
don't need PQDI, Ghost, or any of the other stuff. PQDI does it all.

That said, PQMagic is a "lower level" utility than the others, so it's
a little more work to set up the transfer. As always, one had better
know what one is doing when mucking with this stuff. There is much
room for the "Oh $#!&" factor to creep in here.
--
Keith
Martin
2004-01-13 23:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
I've used Drive Image for the last few years, making a new image of the
primary drive on a removable drive frequently, and it has worked well
for
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
me. On two occasions I used the last image to save my butt. Being able
to
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
replace all of the files as well as the OS saved me days of work.
Partition Magic is far more flexible and works just as well for
this application.
--
Keith
Have never tried Partition Magic. I thought it was only good for
modifying, creating or moving partitions on the same drive. The full
C-drive images I keep as backups are put on separate removable drives.
Can
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
I do this with PM? And if so, what would be its advantages?
Sure. The biggest advantage (of PQMagic) is being able to change the
size on the fly. Your backup doesn't have to be a full-sized
partition. One can also move partitions around on a disk (sometimes
interesting).
The other big advantage is that I use PQMagic for other things and
don't need PQDI, Ghost, or any of the other stuff. PQDI does it all.
That said, PQMagic is a "lower level" utility than the others, so it's
a little more work to set up the transfer. As always, one had better
know what one is doing when mucking with this stuff. There is much
room for the "Oh $#!&" factor to creep in here.
--
Keith
I guess I'm still confused. Maybe I need to explain further.

I have an essentially full drive: the C-drive with all the files and the OS.
I know I could put the backup image on the same disk in another partition if
there was room, and then copy it to my removable drive. So what I was
asking was: how would I get the image directly onto the removable drive
with PQMagic and what would be the advantage of doing it that way as opposed
to using Dive Image?

Hope I haven't added to the confusion.

Marty
Keith R. Williams
2004-01-14 23:53:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
I've used Drive Image for the last few years, making a new image of
the
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
primary drive on a removable drive frequently, and it has worked
well
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
for
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
me. On two occasions I used the last image to save my butt. Being
able
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
to
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
replace all of the files as well as the OS saved me days of work.
Partition Magic is far more flexible and works just as well for
this application.
--
Keith
Have never tried Partition Magic. I thought it was only good for
modifying, creating or moving partitions on the same drive. The full
C-drive images I keep as backups are put on separate removable drives.
Can
Post by Keith R. Williams
Post by Martin
I do this with PM? And if so, what would be its advantages?
Sure. The biggest advantage (of PQMagic) is being able to change the
size on the fly. Your backup doesn't have to be a full-sized
partition. One can also move partitions around on a disk (sometimes
interesting).
The other big advantage is that I use PQMagic for other things and
don't need PQDI, Ghost, or any of the other stuff. PQDI does it all.
That said, PQMagic is a "lower level" utility than the others, so it's
a little more work to set up the transfer. As always, one had better
know what one is doing when mucking with this stuff. There is much
room for the "Oh $#!&" factor to creep in here.
--
Keith
I guess I'm still confused. Maybe I need to explain further.
I have an essentially full drive: the C-drive with all the files and the OS.
I know I could put the backup image on the same disk in another partition if
there was room, and then copy it to my removable drive. So what I was
asking was: how would I get the image directly onto the removable drive
with PQMagic and what would be the advantage of doing it that way as opposed
to using Dive Image?
I *think* the later versions of PQMagic will copy to true
removables (I.e. CDROMS), but I'm not sure. OTOH, if you're
talking about hard disks in caddies, yes it certainly will work.
Advantage? You can store multiple copies of the same partition
on the target drive. If you have PQMagic (doesn't everyone ;-),
the function is free.
Post by Martin
Hope I haven't added to the confusion.
Nope. I hope I've been clear enough.

I've been using PQMagic since V1.0 was available (for OS/2 only,
BTW). I used it so much for work I had them buy me a
"professional license" of 3.0 (just shy of $1K, at the time). I
tried PQDI and PQDC to clone drives for system testing, but there
was no advantage over PQMagic and a lot of "issues". Since, we
have a corporate license for PWMagic (and I think PQDI), so I no
longer buy the licenses for work. If you can't get PQDC free (it
comes with some drives) it's not worth the effort and even then
it may not be worth it.
--
Keith
Chuck Harris
2004-01-11 22:47:01 UTC
Permalink
simple, get one of the cd bootable linux distributions, and dd
the old drive onto a new one. dd is what the law enforcement
forensic guys use when they absolutely positively need a perfect
copy of the original drive. dd is a standard dump utility on all
unix systems.

-Chuck Harris
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
Jan Panteltje
2004-01-12 00:09:18 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:47:01 -0500) it happened Chuck Harris
Post by Chuck Harris
simple, get one of the cd bootable linux distributions, and dd
the old drive onto a new one. dd is what the law enforcement
forensic guys use when they absolutely positively need a perfect
copy of the original drive. dd is a standard dump utility on all
unix systems.
-Chuck Harris
Well, I did cat /dev/hda > /dev/hdb
The drives MUST be IDENTICAL, as EVERYTHING including
partitioning etc... will be copied.
JP
Blair P. Houghton
2004-01-12 00:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Harris
simple, get one of the cd bootable linux distributions, and dd
the old drive onto a new one. dd is what the law enforcement
forensic guys use when they absolutely positively need a perfect
copy of the original drive. dd is a standard dump utility on all
unix systems.
Also comes with Cygwin (www.cygwin.com), which no jonesing
unix hacker should be without.

--Blair
"I'm posting on it."
Linear
2004-01-11 23:02:36 UTC
Permalink
You can get a little more life out of the old drive if you do a scandisk in
thorough mode (with autofix enabled) and let it map the bad sectors so you
don't try to write to them. If you don't you are inviting crashes everytime
the computer tries to use one of the bad sectors.
N. Thornton
2004-01-12 09:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linear
You can get a little more life out of the old drive if you do a scandisk in
thorough mode (with autofix enabled) and let it map the bad sectors so you
don't try to write to them. If you don't you are inviting crashes everytime
the computer tries to use one of the bad sectors.
You can sometimes get a lot of life that way too. I had an old backup
puter that gots used occasionally with bad bits on the HDD, but it
never did fail.


Regards, NT
Bob Nielsen
2004-01-12 01:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
Before I dumped the MS O/S for Linux, I always set up the partitions
with fdisk formatted the new disk and used xcopy (all after booting to
DOS from Windows). I've heard that ghost is pretty good.
Keith R. Williams
2004-01-13 02:42:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Nielsen
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
Before I dumped the MS O/S for Linux, I always set up the partitions
with fdisk formatted the new disk and used xcopy (all after booting to
DOS from Windows).
Doesn't work.
Post by Bob Nielsen
I've heard that ghost is pretty good.
I've heard the same, though Partion Magic is far more
flexible/useful.
--
Keith
Paul Camilleri
2004-01-12 06:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Jim,

First find out of the drive you wish to clone has bad sectors not marked in
the drive bad sector list if it has one. If no new bad sectors exist then
take your pick of the majority of hard drive cloning software out there as
long as the software you choose is capable of handling the cluster sizes of
the 'source' drive with possible on-the-fly modification as said clusters
are re-created on the 'destination' drive.

However, if the drive you wish to clone DOES have new bad sectors, and said
bad sectors contain data you wish to attempt to regain, then your choice of
cloning software should ideally, and in addition to the above, include
provision to perform 'sector data recovery'.

I won't recommend any particular hard drive cloning software for either of
the above scenarios so I'll leave that to people more familiar with what is
actually available.

If you want to be more specific with the nature of the (impending?) fault as
you see it then just give us shout. By the way, you are likely to be correct
about the need to sort this out now.

Paul Camilleri
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Chris Carlen
2004-01-12 15:30:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
Software? Why do you Windows guys always need to *get* some software to
do this stuff that should be easy to do with one or two simple built in
operating system commands.

I just don't get why people put up with Windows. I guess when you don't
know any better...
--
____________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser/Optical Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
***@sandia.gov
Richard Crowley
2004-01-12 16:13:59 UTC
Permalink
"Chris Carlen" wrote ...
Post by Chris Carlen
Software? Why do you Windows guys always need
to *get* some software to do this stuff that should be
easy to do with one or two simple built in operating
system commands.
xcopy
Post by Chris Carlen
I just don't get why people put up with Windows.
I guess when you don't know any better...
Perhaps for the same perverse reasons why so many
more users don't get why people put up with such
narrow, arcane and fiddly things as Linux, et. al. :-)
Paul Camilleri
2004-01-12 17:40:08 UTC
Permalink
The problem with Jim's hard drive has been stated in very general terms. No
mention of actual data loss has been made yet. The potential as we all know
too well is clear.

From the standpoint of no data loss, then it follows that standard OS
archiving tools may be used without regard to the OS and any further expense
or ramblings of the benefits of one OS over another.

If data loss has occured and lost data is not required, again standard tools
from the OS may by used.

But if data loss has occured and an attempt to recover the lost data must be
made, then we are in another ball game entirely and one which is split
clearly in two.

Without regard to any particular OS, the two groups of data recover software
I have seen are those which simply rely on the computer BIOS and those which
communicate directly with the drive controller built into the hard drive.

Data recovery software which relies soley on the BIOS is inherently limited
to the capabilities of the BIOS and IMHO should be avoided.

Data recovery software which communicates directly with the drive controller
will have specific knowledge of that particular controller, thus allowing
activities well beyond what any BIOS will be capable of. These new abilities
include things like dynamic sector to sector read/write timimg attributes,
sector order read/writes, dynamic cluster configuration and much, much more.
This is why serious data recovery centres avoid the BIOS entirely when using
data recovery software. Of course, data recovery hardware has no need for it
in any case and is purely an extension of what I have already mentioned.

Be aware that all Windows software will be unaware of anything beyond the
BIOS at most and will rely entirely on vendor provided drivers for the
specifics - if any. On the Linux front I am not sure because I do not know
it as well but I would welcome specific information myself in this area and
for this platform. My guess is it would broadly have the same approach
implemented directly into the kernel or loadable modules.

It is indeed futile to re-read presumably faulty sectors in the majority of
cases. However, when the hard drive controller itself is under program
control, then simply re-reading a faulty sector is just the tip of a
mountain of different approaches.

In any case, the subject has meandered somewhat, but at least, in the worst
case I guess you really know your options now right? There are questions
specific to the problem which are as yet unknown (unless I've missed
something) like what OS are we even talking about, the file system in
question, type of data (text/binary), are bakups available, has the need for
data recovery even in the event of actual data loss been assessed etc etc.

Sorry about the long post.

Paul Camilleri
Post by Chris Carlen
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
Software? Why do you Windows guys always need to *get* some software to
do this stuff that should be easy to do with one or two simple built in
operating system commands.
I just don't get why people put up with Windows. I guess when you don't
know any better...
--
____________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser/Optical Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
Jim Thompson
2004-01-12 17:44:06 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:40:08 +0000 (UTC), "Paul Camilleri"
Post by Paul Camilleri
The problem with Jim's hard drive has been stated in very general terms. No
mention of actual data loss has been made yet. The potential as we all know
too well is clear.
[snip]

I just want to write a new (and larger) hard drive before this one
goes kaput... mainly to avoid all the software installation hassles (I
have everything backed up, but installs are lengthy
pains-in-the-butt).

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Paul Wylie
2004-01-12 18:00:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
I just want to write a new (and larger) hard drive before this one
goes kaput... mainly to avoid all the software installation hassles (I
have everything backed up, but installs are lengthy
pains-in-the-butt).
Well, if you're running WinNT, Win2k or WinXP, and you're looking to spend
as little $$ as possible, and you don't mind having to have the exact same
size partitions on the new drive as the old drive (or you already have
Partition Magic), then you could simply install the new drive, mirror the
original drive to it, wait for Windows to synch the partitions, pull the
old drive and run from the new drive (breaking the mirror, of course).

If you need to expand partitions, Partition Magic could allow you to do so
after the drive replacement is complete.

Obviously, this option's really only realistic if you're in an all-Windows
environment and you already own PM.

--Paul
** Note "removemunged" in email address and remove to reply. **
Keith R. Williams
2004-01-12 19:08:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wylie
Post by Jim Thompson
I just want to write a new (and larger) hard drive before this one
goes kaput... mainly to avoid all the software installation hassles (I
have everything backed up, but installs are lengthy
pains-in-the-butt).
Well, if you're running WinNT, Win2k or WinXP, and you're looking to spend
as little $$ as possible, and you don't mind having to have the exact same
size partitions on the new drive as the old drive (or you already have
Partition Magic), then you could simply install the new drive, mirror the
original drive to it, wait for Windows to synch the partitions, pull the
old drive and run from the new drive (breaking the mirror, of course).
If you need to expand partitions, Partition Magic could allow you to do so
after the drive replacement is complete.
Partition Magic will copy the partitions and resize at theh same time.
--
Keith
Paul Wylie
2004-01-12 23:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith R. Williams
Partition Magic will copy the partitions and resize at theh same time.
That's newer to PM than any version I've got lying around. It's a nice
feature addition, but it kind of eliminates the need for PQ's DriveCopy or
DriveImage programs for most home users.

BTW: Has anybody had any experience dealing with tech support or sales
since Symantec finished assimilating PQ back in December?

--Paul
** Note "removemunged" in email address and remove to reply. **
unknown
2004-01-13 01:22:45 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:47:40 +0000 (UTC), Paul Wylie
Post by Paul Wylie
Post by Keith R. Williams
Partition Magic will copy the partitions and resize at theh same time.
That's newer to PM than any version I've got lying around. It's a nice
feature addition, but it kind of eliminates the need for PQ's DriveCopy or
DriveImage programs for most home users.
BTW: Has anybody had any experience dealing with tech support or sales
since Symantec finished assimilating PQ back in December?
--Paul
** Note "removemunged" in email address and remove to reply. **
Symantec and "Tech Support" in the same sentance???
You've GOTTA be joking!!
Paid tech support could not solve the problem, and still insisted on
being paid. I let the credit card company fight it out.
Keith R. Williams
2004-01-13 13:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wylie
Post by Keith R. Williams
Partition Magic will copy the partitions and resize at theh same time.
That's newer to PM than any version I've got lying around. It's a nice
feature addition, but it kind of eliminates the need for PQ's DriveCopy or
DriveImage programs for most home users.
It's been there since 1.0. It works differently than PQDI or Drive
Copy (useless), but it's in there.
Post by Paul Wylie
BTW: Has anybody had any experience dealing with tech support or sales
since Symantec finished assimilating PQ back in December?
Good luck!
--
Keith
a***@MIX.COM
2004-01-14 16:35:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wylie
BTW: Has anybody had any experience dealing with tech support or sales
since Symantec finished assimilating PQ back in December?
Oh yes, definitely. It S U C K S.

If that's not clear enough, give them a call. First you'll be
forced to endure their sales pitch for paid support over the
phone. Nothing you dial will blow that lengthy, slowly spoken
message away. And you will get every thime you call, no matter
what, unless you pay, period.

Then, try to get actual answers out of anyone there. For example
ask them what "save the disk's signature" or whatever it's really
called means? They won't know. It's supposed to save whatever
XP writes on your disk to authenticate your use of it, by the way...

Or let's say you have a disk with a couple partitions you're trying
to restore, but all you're getting is errors or something unrealable
("can't enumerate directory..") after attempting to do that. Again,
they will be worth less than no help at all. They will start
talking about 'fixmbr' and all that crap, when they should be telling
you to simply run chkdsk -r on the damn thing, which will move every-
thing into the same one partition and at least get you something you
can then work with (by fixing boot.ini to point to the right partition).

That only takes a couple more hours for about 5 gigs worth of files.
After a 2+ hour restore due to the 16-bit scsi path....

How did I find all this out? By feeding some well-chosen key words
into various search engines. And it only took me maybe a week or
so, since I know (knew...) just about nothing about windows (when I
started this little project).....

Then there's PQ's claim they support JAZ drives via the USB port.
But that does not work when booted from the DI cdrom. Then they
use MS's crappy boot code which doesn't support very many SCSI and
such adapters either. It was only by pure luck that I found the
MS-included "sparrow" driver will work with a certain Adaptec
pcmcia (16-bit) card, so there went another US$99 down the drain
to Adaptec for one of those. Luckily at least Adaptec still sells
the damn things - you will not find anything that old in a shop
these days..... Searchhing the web I did find one vendor on the
entire planet with one, and oddly enough he is only a few miles
away from me - but he wants US$179 for the damn thing. Probably
cause he's sat on it forever already, heh.....

And speaking of law enforcement and what they use, the ones I know
suggested trying Atlanta Data Recovery's utility (a commercial
product) which would have been fine if the damn disk didn't die
before I could get a complete copy of it that way. They also do
reverse cloning (starting from the end of the disk, not the top
of it) which is good on drives where there are read errors at
the beginning of the media. The only problem with this otherwise
excellent tool is it doesn't know abouut XP filesystems (or whatever
that's called..) so you can't use it to look at or fix directories
and that sort of stuff.

Finally, take a look at http://www.logicube.com for an interesting
hardware-only approach to all this...

Billy Y..
John Bennett
2004-01-13 07:38:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
I just want to write a new (and larger) hard drive before this one
goes kaput... mainly to avoid all the software installation hassles (I
have everything backed up, but installs are lengthy
pains-in-the-butt).
I've certainly duplicated my share of drives over the years, using
everything from xcopy to (pre- and post-Norton/Symantec) Ghost to Partition
Magic. But the last two times I've upgraded a drive, I've been amazed at
how simple and effective Maxtor's bundled MaxBlast3 software has been.
After asking how you want to use your new drive (as an additional or
replacement drive), it inspects your existing configuration, shows you how
to connect the new drive, and even spits out a printable custom
installation guide (with jumper settings, etc.) for your system. Once the
new drive's physically installed, if you told it you wanted to replace an
existing drive, it will then copy the entire contents of your old drive to
the new one. I have no idea how, but it even does this from a Windows app
- so painlessly that I almost feel guilty using it. ;) Oh, and not only
did this work flawlessly both times I've used it, but it did so with NTFS
partitions, running on Windows 2000 *Server*. So I'm pretty confident it
can handle more common Windows configurations, too.

While I was a bit leery of Maxtor drives a while back, I've found their
recent models to be fast, quiet and reliable. Depending on your
preferences, they also provide a utility to tweak the drive's "acoustic
management" behavior, trading various degrees of performance for decreased
operating noise. I found this especially useful for my living room's "home
theatre" PC and TiVo upgrades, for example.

--John
a***@MIX.COM
2004-01-14 16:55:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bennett
While I was a bit leery of Maxtor drives a while back, I've found their
recent models to be fast, quiet and reliable.
I've had a 5T060H6 spun up for a couple years now and it works fine.
There is a pretty loud clunk when it loads the heads but after that
it stays pretty quiet...

Billy Y..
Jim Thompson
2004-01-14 17:02:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@MIX.COM
Post by John Bennett
While I was a bit leery of Maxtor drives a while back, I've found their
recent models to be fast, quiet and reliable.
I've had a 5T060H6 spun up for a couple years now and it works fine.
There is a pretty loud clunk when it loads the heads but after that
it stays pretty quiet...
Billy Y..
I've had Maxtor drives exclusively for years, so I will pursue John's
suggestion to just use their included software.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
a***@MIX.COM
2004-01-14 23:32:16 UTC
Permalink
Jim Thompson <***@example.com> writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^
By the way not only is example.com now a live domain
it's also serving up a web page from a formerly unused
(RESERVED-192) address block (for those of you like me
who had been filtering 192.0/16 into oblivion).

Better you should use ***@any-Unix-based-mail-system.com,
or something similar (null account) for other operating systems...

Billy Y..
Jim Thompson
2004-01-14 23:53:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@MIX.COM
^^^^^^^^^^^
By the way not only is example.com now a live domain
it's also serving up a web page from a formerly unused
(RESERVED-192) address block (for those of you like me
who had been filtering 192.0/16 into oblivion).
or something similar (null account) for other operating systems...
Billy Y..
Ehhhh? Here's what I get at www.example.com..........

You have reached this web page by typing "example.com", "example.net",
or "example.org" into your web browser.

These domain names are reserved for use in documentation and are not
available for registration. See RFC 2606, Section 3.


...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
a***@MIX.COM
2004-01-15 02:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
Ehhhh? Here's what I get at www.example.com..........
The point being it is now an active domain owned by someone else.
There is currently no mail exchanger for it, but then it didn't
even exist at all not too long ago either. Speaking as one who
gets about 125,000 pieces of junk email a week I know I'm a much
happier guy when nobody else is using my address..... cause I'm
already getting plenty all by myself.

In Unix the username nobody is a null account - mail to it is tossed
on purpose. I don't think there is currently an equivalent in the
world of domain names though, unless it's .invalid (which I admit is
a much crappier looking solution)...

Billy Y..
Jim Thompson
2004-01-15 15:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@MIX.COM
Post by Jim Thompson
Ehhhh? Here's what I get at www.example.com..........
The point being it is now an active domain owned by someone else.
[snip]
Post by a***@MIX.COM
Billy Y..
Maybe under one of the new extensions?

WHOIS .com/.net comes up "reserved".

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Harry Conover
2004-01-12 19:12:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Carlen
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
Software? Why do you Windows guys always need to *get* some software to
do this stuff that should be easy to do with one or two simple built in
operating system commands.
Why? Because neither the Windows OS, nor Unix, Linux, or any other
current OS which I am aware since DG's RDOS (1978) provides a utility
or a command capable of true bit-for-bit, segment-by-segment disk
clonings.

Some commercial, freeware, and assembly language coded homemade
programs can do this, but if you're aware of a contemporary,
conventional OS that provides this capability, please let us know what
it is. The last true surface-to-surface disk cloning routine that I
remember was in a commercial OS package was the DISKCOPY command
present in Data General's RDOS back around 1978. DEC provided similiar
disk cloning support for their PDP and VAX systems, but it was alway
part of their utility support library or DECUS supported, and IIRC not
an integral component of VMS or RT11 itself.

Some Windows gurus may be able to better educate me on this subject
(please do), but the closest thing to disk cloning that windows (or
DOS) are capable is the time honored XCOPY32 /H/I/C/K/E/R/Y command,
which is normally only available by shelling of Windows to a DOS
environment, but since Windows remains active, is not capable of
performing a clone of the Windows system disk beause it cannot open
some of the currently opened Windows files. (I've always found it
strange that the only way to access this command (with the indicated
switch settings) is by shelling out to DOS...since a stand-alone
booted DOS doesn't recognize many of the required switches.) Possibly
still another reason why separate, stand-alone programs are desired
for cloning a system disk.

Then too, long, unpaid for posts like this are a clear indication that
I have too much free time on my hands, like many of us here. :-)
Post by Chris Carlen
I just don't get why people put up with Windows. I guess when you don't
know any better...
Perhaps it simply something similar to "Meat, it's what's for
dinner!", a Windows platform is the common denominator for
entertainment, business, professional software applications. Then too,
I am a C programmer and have used Unix and Unix-like OS since my first
exposure to both C and Unix in 1980 (at Genrad). Until very recently,
almost all of my C and assembly language software was developed in a
Unix OS environment, but during the past 5 years, most of this work
has gravitated to a Windows based OS where most of the today's action
is. There is much good that comes out of using a common and popular
API in one's programming! :-)

Harry C.
Jan Panteltje
2004-01-12 23:50:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Conover
Post by Chris Carlen
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
Software? Why do you Windows guys always need to *get* some software to
do this stuff that should be easy to do with one or two simple built in
operating system commands.
Why? Because neither the Windows OS, nor Unix, Linux, or any other
current OS which I am aware since DG's RDOS (1978) provides a utility
or a command capable of true bit-for-bit, segment-by-segment disk
clonings.
Linux: cat /dev/hda > /dev/hdb for example will.
The rest of your post, regarding you do not know this, makes little sense.
How to copy floppy:
cat /dev/fd0 > floppy_image
change flop
cat floppy_image > /dev/fd0
Same for Memory stick (scsi drives etc)
cat /dev/sda > whatever
cat whatever > /dev/something_else
Windows has rawwrite (not sure that works on a hd).
Note I wrote /dev/hda, NOT /dev/hda1
Me
Russell Shaw
2004-01-13 01:04:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Harry Conover
Post by Chris Carlen
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
Software? Why do you Windows guys always need to *get* some software to
do this stuff that should be easy to do with one or two simple built in
operating system commands.
Why? Because neither the Windows OS, nor Unix, Linux, or any other
current OS which I am aware since DG's RDOS (1978) provides a utility
or a command capable of true bit-for-bit, segment-by-segment disk
clonings.
Linux: cat /dev/hda > /dev/hdb for example will.
The rest of your post, regarding you do not know this, makes little sense.
cat /dev/fd0 > floppy_image
change flop
cat floppy_image > /dev/fd0
Same for Memory stick (scsi drives etc)
cat /dev/sda > whatever
cat whatever > /dev/something_else
Windows has rawwrite (not sure that works on a hd).
Note I wrote /dev/hda, NOT /dev/hda1
Me
Global copies are more useful than cloning because then
the second disk doesn't need to be identical. You can use
CD, nfs, or any other media. In linux, just cp -a the various
top level directories you need, and run lilo on the new hard
disk to make it bootable.
Joel Kolstad
2004-01-13 01:58:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Carlen
Software? Why do you Windows guys always need to *get* some software to
do this stuff that should be easy to do with one or two simple built in
operating system commands.
Perhaps it should be, but it isn't always. On the other hand, things that
shold be trivial in any OS -- like getting all applications to add
themselves to a standardized 'start' menu regardless of which window manager
is in use, or having all applications start with a user's (or Bill Gate's!)
global choice for a command like 'Copy' to be Ctrl+C rather than starting
with different defaults (Alt+C, Ctrl+C, etc.) -- isn't in Linux (...but it
certainly is in Windows).

But a more serious question now that we're done with our pissing match...
can Linux-sans-3rd-part-tools deal with:

1) Copying the partition that contains the operating system itself -- in its
entirety -- to another drive? This is what trips up Windows -- various
system files such as the registry are being held open while the OS is
running, hence then can't be copied with a trivial 'copy' command.
2) Copying the partition to a differently sized one (or, equivalently,
resizing partitions)? This is also the usual scenario a user finds
themselves in -- they buy a newer, bigger hard drive (because the old one is
full!) and want to copy everything but simply have the excess space left
over to keep expanding into. Windows won't resize partitions without data
loss, but many 3rd party tools will perform the data copy and partition
resize trick all in one fell swoop.

Thanks,
---Joel Kolstad
Russell Shaw
2004-01-13 08:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joel Kolstad
Post by Chris Carlen
Software? Why do you Windows guys always need to *get* some software
to do this stuff that should be easy to do with one or two simple built in
operating system commands.
I didn't write that, but i agree.
Post by Joel Kolstad
Perhaps it should be, but it isn't always. On the other hand, things that
shold be trivial in any OS -- like getting all applications to add
themselves to a standardized 'start' menu regardless of which window manager
is in use, or having all applications start with a user's (or Bill Gate's!)
global choice for a command like 'Copy' to be Ctrl+C rather than starting
with different defaults (Alt+C, Ctrl+C, etc.) -- isn't in Linux (...but it
certainly is in Windows).
Debian automatically adds all installations to the main menu regardless
of window manager. I still arrange my own menu so that things are grouped
according to importance. The alternatives system in debian allows any editor
or compiler to be invoked by the same command, if you want it to.
Post by Joel Kolstad
But a more serious question now that we're done with our pissing match...
1) Copying the partition that contains the operating system itself -- in its
entirety -- to another drive? This is what trips up Windows -- various
system files such as the registry are being held open while the OS is
running, hence then can't be copied with a trivial 'copy' command.
Windoze kind of gluez itself to the hardware to make copying difficult.
In linux, you can just cp -a to a new disk on all the main top level
directories of a running system, which is the equivalent of using xcopy
in dos. A few directories you just create empty (such as /proc) because
the duplicate OS fills them in. Finally, run lilo to make the new disk
bootable. There's various ways of doing that step, but it's a 5s job.

If you use dd to copy a partition, the new disk should be bootable
immediately.
Post by Joel Kolstad
2) Copying the partition to a differently sized one (or, equivalently,
resizing partitions)? This is also the usual scenario a user finds
themselves in -- they buy a newer, bigger hard drive (because the old one is
full!) and want to copy everything but simply have the excess space left
over to keep expanding into. Windows won't resize partitions without data
loss, but many 3rd party tools will perform the data copy and partition
resize trick all in one fell swoop.
IIRC, there's a linux app to resize partitions without data loss. However,
you need it that infrequently that it's just easier to connect the new HDD
to the cable, format, partition, create filesystems, mount it on /mnt, then
cp -a everything onto it (except /proc, /mnt, etc). You could use dd, but
i don't know what happens to the extra space if you copy onto a larger drive.
By using cp -a, any bad blocks are avoided.
Daniel Haude
2004-01-13 09:43:52 UTC
Permalink
["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:32:39 +1100,
Post by Russell Shaw
cp -a everything onto it (except /proc, /mnt, etc).
^

Note the absence of a slash before 'etc'--that's important ;-)

--Daniel
--
"With me is nothing wrong! And with you?" (from r.a.m.p)
Jan Panteltje
2004-01-13 17:32:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Russell Shaw
Global copies are more useful than cloning because then
the second disk doesn't need to be identical. You can use
CD, nfs, or any other media. In linux, just cp -a the various
top level directories you need, and run lilo on the new hard
disk to make it bootable.
This is true.
For me I like global copy to make DVD, for example if I record
a .mpg movie from satellite, I do not author it anymore, but
burn it to dvd as image.
So then I play the DVD with
mplayer /dev/dvd
No fast forward / rewind, but saves so much disk space when
making the DVD, has more space on the DVD (the full 4.7 GB),
and no authoring required, so no syn problems(audio) no programs
needed.
JP
Jan Panteltje
2004-01-13 17:37:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Russell Shaw
Global copies are more useful than cloning because then
the second disk doesn't need to be identical. You can use
CD, nfs, or any other media. In linux, just cp -a the various
top level directories you need, and run lilo on the new hard
disk to make it bootable.
Sorry I mean cat /dev/dvd | mplayer -
of cause (in regards to my other reply, that I cannot follow up on
because it is not listed yet here...
Harry Conover
2004-01-13 22:57:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Harry Conover
Post by Chris Carlen
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
Software? Why do you Windows guys always need to *get* some software to
do this stuff that should be easy to do with one or two simple built in
operating system commands.
Why? Because neither the Windows OS, nor Unix, Linux, or any other
current OS which I am aware since DG's RDOS (1978) provides a utility
or a command capable of true bit-for-bit, segment-by-segment disk
clonings.
Linux: cat /dev/hda > /dev/hdb for example will.
The rest of your post, regarding you do not know this, makes little sense.
Evidently you don't understand the problem, becaause neither Unix nor
Linux is capable of performing a cat operation on a file that has been
opened and is currently being used by another system process, such as
operating system itself. (Try it and you'll only get a remakably terse
error message.) Obviously you need to be able to replicate the system
disk in order to clone the system. If you are familiar with operating
systems, you'll find that none worth their salt will permit any task
to access a file that has been read/write opened by another task,
because of the data skew that could result. Granted, some of the more
costly data base systems incorporate rather sophisticated mechanisms
to permit such concurrent file access, but this is well beyond the
scope and capabilities of OS like Unix and Windows.

I've cloned both Unix and Linux system disks and found that you have
to shut down the OS and use a stand-alone utility program to do this
successfully, just as you had to do with VMS and Windows. (This is
precisely why the Red Cap distribution of Linux contains such a
utility.)

I won't even mention the fact that IIRC you cannot perform a cat to a
raw, unformatted and uninstalled media, another task that cloning
usually performs.

I would add to that that no partitioning software product of which I
am aware is capable of ONLY cloning the disk. Partition Magic and
similar products leave their own thumbprint on the cloned disk, often
difficult to delete without destroying the functionality of the
pseudo-cloned product that they create.
(They do not create a bit-for-bit, track-for-track replica of the
original disk, so for my money, that takes them out of the cloning
game.)

No doubt that others exist, but thus far the only cloning mass
marketed product that I've had any degree of success with is PQ's
"DriveCopy", which is not without its own problems...still the best
non-industrial priced tool that I've found to do this job. By that I
mean that when I attempted to clone a 30-gig, 4-partition disk to a
70-gig drive, the created partitions on the new drive still totalled
only 30-gigs, DriveCopy not expanding the partitions to fill the
70-gig drive as I had expected it to do. Then too, it may have been a
cockpit error on my part, or a limitation in the capabilities of the
3+ year-old version of this software that I've continued to use for my
monthy (well, amost...) master to slave drive backups.

Harry C.

p.s., I'm a conservative and cautious sort, so I alway keep two drives
on my system that periodically mirror one another. I normally operate
from the slave drive and the only time that both drives are
simultaneously enabled by my BIOS is while I'm performing a total
system backup. Backups are extremely fast and instantly available when
using this method. Just a suggestion to others, but I always run a
virus check and the AddAware program before doing my backups, which
assures that my backup drive (actually the master) remains lily white.
Jan Panteltje
2004-01-14 01:12:17 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (13 Jan 2004 14:57:11 -0800) it happened ***@yahoo.com
(Harry Conover) wrote in <***@posting.google.com>:

I've cloned both Unix and Linux system disks and found that you have
Post by Harry Conover
to shut down the OS and use a stand-alone utility program to do this
successfully, just as you had to do with VMS and Windows. (This is
precisely why the Red Cap distribution of Linux contains such cat /dev/hda > q1a
utility.)
I have Linux on my USB memory stick too, so I am free to plug
it in and copy anything to anything else (runs from ramdisk).
http://www.8ung.at/spblinux/
There is also the Knoppix CD that will give you a Linux running from the RAM disk.
But I think you are wrong abou this, I did copy that harddisk from my running system,
lets try:
mount
panteltje:~# mount
/dev/hda7 on / type ext2 (rw) < Linux is now running here
proc on /proc type proc (rw)
devpts on /dev/pts type devpts (rw,mode=0620,gid=5)
/dev/hda5 on /boot type ext2 (rw)
shmfs on /dev/shm type shm (rw)
/dev/hdb1 on /video type ext2 (rw)
/dev/hdb2 on /reiser type reiserfs (rw)
/dev/hda1 on /big type vfat (rw,uid=500,gid=100) < windows 98 disk
/proc/bus/usb on /proc/bus/usb type usbdevfs (rw)

cat /dev/hdb > q1
I do rw-r--r-- 1 root root 52105216 Jan 14 01:54 q1

I now do ctrl C, not enough space.
See it DOES copy:
ls -rtl q1
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 53223424 Jan 14 01:56 q1
What error message.
You may get stuck when copying /proc/ or so...

See, you need some practice, throw out that MS windows,
get a real OS.

To make a clone hd for a new PC avoiding your fears, you could
take a PC, stick source HD in IDE2 master and the empty in IDE2 slave.
Or use your Linux memory stick.....
This is ultra cool stuff, it allows you to take over any system...
Just enable USB ZIPDRIVE boot in BIOS :-)
Ian Stirling
2004-01-14 18:39:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Conover
I've cloned both Unix and Linux system disks and found that you have
Post by Harry Conover
to shut down the OS and use a stand-alone utility program to do this
<snip>
Post by Harry Conover
What error message.
You may get stuck when copying /proc/ or so...
You cannot image copy an active filesystem, and be sure of having a
faithfull copy.

For example, if you delete a file half way through the copy, which has
half it's blocks on the first half, and half on the second, then
what happens?

At best, you'll end up with the file either corrupt or nonexistant after
a filesystem check.
At worst, it ends up in shreds, almost hopelessly corrupt.
Bob Nielsen
2004-01-14 20:47:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Stirling
Post by Harry Conover
I've cloned both Unix and Linux system disks and found that you have
Post by Harry Conover
to shut down the OS and use a stand-alone utility program to do this
<snip>
Post by Harry Conover
What error message.
You may get stuck when copying /proc/ or so...
You cannot image copy an active filesystem, and be sure of having a
faithfull copy.
For example, if you delete a file half way through the copy, which has
half it's blocks on the first half, and half on the second, then
what happens?
At best, you'll end up with the file either corrupt or nonexistant after
a filesystem check.
At worst, it ends up in shreds, almost hopelessly corrupt.
You don't really want to copy /proc anyway, since it isn't really a
filesystem. From man(5) proc:

DESCRIPTION
/proc is a pseudo-filesystem which is used as an interface to kernel
data structures rather than reading and interpreting /dev/kmem. Most
of it is read-only, but some files allow kernel variables to be
changed.
a***@MIX.COM
2004-01-14 20:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Stirling
You cannot image copy an active filesystem, and be sure of having a
faithfull copy.
For example, if you delete a file half way through the copy, which has
half it's blocks on the first half, and half on the second, then
what happens?
Well, if the directory has already been copied, and deleting something
just changes said directory to mark its blocks as free, and if nothing
else scribbles on said blocks in the interim - then nothing at all, not
a damn thing, happens...

But the usual person would not be attempting anything else whilst said
copy is in progress, right?

Billy Y..
Ian Stirling
2004-01-14 22:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@MIX.COM
Post by Ian Stirling
You cannot image copy an active filesystem, and be sure of having a
faithfull copy.
For example, if you delete a file half way through the copy, which has
half it's blocks on the first half, and half on the second, then
what happens?
Well, if the directory has already been copied, and deleting something
just changes said directory to mark its blocks as free, and if nothing
else scribbles on said blocks in the interim - then nothing at all, not
a damn thing, happens...
It's not quite that simple.
In most modern filesystems, the information about what blocks contain
a file is spread over the disk.
When a large file is deleted, this may need to be noted in many locations
over the disk.

Especially true if the file is fragmented.
Deleting half a file (or adding new ones, overwriting, or altering)
will cause errors on the next disk check.
At best it's benign, at worst it's not detected and causes corruption
in other files.
Post by a***@MIX.COM
But the usual person would not be attempting anything else whilst said
copy is in progress, right?
Unless you've made the filesystem read-only, or taken the system into
maintainance mode (and verified that nothing else will run) normal
background activity can cause files to be changed.
Jan Panteltje
2004-01-15 00:19:26 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:39:08 GMT) it happened Ian Stirling
Post by Ian Stirling
Post by Harry Conover
I've cloned both Unix and Linux system disks and found that you have
Post by Harry Conover
to shut down the OS and use a stand-alone utility program to do this
<snip>
Post by Harry Conover
What error message.
You may get stuck when copying /proc/ or so...
You cannot image copy an active filesystem, and be sure of having a
faithfull copy.
For example, if you delete a file half way through the copy, which has
half it's blocks on the first half, and half on the second, then
what happens?
At best, you'll end up with the file either corrupt or nonexistant after
a filesystem check.
At worst, it ends up in shreds, almost hopelessly corrupt.
Not always a disaster, run fsck whatever, drop that file.
It is sane not to do anything else while performing such things...
But running from RAM with my USB memory stick with Linux, or as
others pointed out from a floppy with Linux, or using the CDROM drive
with Knoppix, you are 100% safe.
I have my memory stick and also Knoppix CD as rescue disk :-)
It is a MUST (ever forgot your root password?)
I am always root (99%), always doing things with the system.
Last week I made a mistake, renamed /usr/lib/libc.so.6 (wanted
to link against some other version), but THAT was no longer possible,
as mv also uses libc, so nothing worked anymore.
Knoppix CD, boot from CDROM, mount old system, rename it back,
reboot, done.
It is all in the game, done in a minute, you can write in Usenet about it for days...
Rarely I make such a mistake (4 years ago I whiped out all of X11 dirs).
But I admit that for people new to Linux the learning curve is steep.
Once you get the hang of it, it is a great OS.
MS windows gets my blood pressure up very quickly, even if it was for
the ever 'reboot' do do anythying (I still run the old win98 for some progs
they forgot to port to Linux).
Chuck Harris
2004-01-14 03:54:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Conover
Evidently you don't understand the problem, becaause neither Unix nor
Linux is capable of performing a cat operation on a file that has been
opened and is currently being used by another system process, such as
operating system itself. (Try it and you'll only get a remakably terse
Actually, it works just fine. If someone is in the process of writing
the file when you try to cat or copy it, it will just a copy of how
things were when the copy occurred.

I routinely do things like "tail /var/log/messages" to watch the
the messages that are dumping into my logs.

The safe way of doing a copy, is to umount the disk, and dd the disk to
the new disk. That way it doesn't matter whether the new disk has any
filesystem, or partitioning on it at all. dd doesn't care, it just does
a bit by bit, track by track copy of the source onto the destination.

dd /dev/hda /dev/hdb <-- note, no partition number!

and you now have an identical pair of disks.

But be warned, they will have the same partition tables, boot sectors,
everything... copy a 20 Gb disk onto a 40 Gb disk, and you will have a
20Gb disk with space you cannot access through the file system.

-Chuck Harris
a***@MIX.COM
2004-01-14 16:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Conover
Why? Because neither the Windows OS, nor Unix, Linux, or any other
current OS which I am aware since DG's RDOS (1978) provides a utility
or a command capable of true bit-for-bit, segment-by-segment disk
clonings.
Heh heh - you obviously have never used Apple Software Restore -
one of the all too few utilities that CAN actually make a bit-for-
bit copy (and I do mean _100%_ identical) of a disk.... It even
corrects the geometry when going to a different sized device. I
use backup drives that are about half the size because I don't
need to save lots of unused buffers, and I restore several times
a year, usually when IE croaks and scribbles all over my stuff..

Example - try to save a 200+MB JPEG file. IE wants to make a icon
from a thumbnail of it and needs more memory than it has, so it
just keeps going anyway, overwriting the os and who knows what else.

The only down side of ASR is its 4GB limit, which means one has to
keep most apps and data in some other partition(s)... and it doesn't
know pc filesystems, but it does handle Unix quite well.

Billy Y..
Robert Casey
2004-01-14 05:58:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
When I bought a new Maxtor drive, it came with cloning software that worked
pretty well. But as someone else pointed out in this thread, software
like this
may not do other manufacturers' HDs...
Mark J.
2004-01-15 18:26:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
Hey Jim, I saw this the other day and thought it about the best backup idea
I'd seen in ages:


http://www.maxtor.com/en/products/external/onetouch/onetouch_combo/index.htm

Regards,
Mark
j.b. miller
2004-01-15 19:36:57 UTC
Permalink
That Maxtor one touch unit is kinda pricey though!
The 160G unit is $250US, about $400 C.
I can a drive and 2 pullouts for less than $200 C AND if the C drive dies,
I can swap in the D drive in less than 5 minutes!
I can easily setup a 'one click' to backup C to D.......

gimmicks.......

jay in ontario
Mark J.
2004-01-15 20:43:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by j.b. miller
That Maxtor one touch unit is kinda pricey though!
The 160G unit is $250US, about $400 C.
I can a drive and 2 pullouts for less than $200 C AND if the C drive
dies, I can swap in the D drive in less than 5 minutes!
I can easily setup a 'one click' to backup C to D.......
gimmicks.......
jay in ontario
Aaaha, but it has a USB 2.0 and/or firewire interface. No rebooting,
hot-swappable, lightning fast. That's what makes it cost more. No gimmicks
involved.
Costas Vlachos
2004-01-15 21:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark J.
Post by Jim Thompson
I haven't done this in years, so could I have everyone's opinion for
best hard drive cloning software?
I have one that's starting to exhibit clunking noises and I'd like to
copy it *now* so that I don't have to do massive software re-installs
;-)
...Jim Thompson
Hey Jim, I saw this the other day and thought it about the best backup idea
http://www.maxtor.com/en/products/external/onetouch/onetouch_combo/index.htm
Post by Mark J.
Regards,
Mark
I have the above drive (just bought it last week!). £232 for the 300 GB
version. Connected to my PC via FireWire (IEEE 1394). Huge capacity, quiet,
and VERY fast - outperforms my ATA100 internal HD!

Costas
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