Discussion:
For All the Michael Moore Fans
(too old to reply)
Jim Thompson
2004-07-05 18:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Letter-to-Editor in today's EV Tribune (Phoenix)....

Moore film falsely depicts flight of Saudis

Michael Moore's movie, "Fahrenheit 9/ll" informs us I that,
immediately after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, while U.S.
airspace was closed to all commercial traffic, Bush arranged for a
special flight to secretly spirit Bush's friends, Bin Laden family
members, safely out of the country.

The reality is the bin Laden's didn't leave the U.S. until U.S.
airspace was re-opened and not at the arrangement of Bush but at the
urging of "terror czar" Richard Clark's of 9/11 commission fame, who
informed them that the U.S. couldn't ensure their safety.

You remember him. He was the guy who told reporters in an August 2002
interview that Bush initiated a project, in the first week of
February, 2001, to "increase CIA resources, for example the covert
action, fivefold (over Clinton's efforts), to go after al-Qaida" and
then went on to make verbatim contradictions of such statements before
the 9/11 commission (with his new Bush-bash book just hitting the
markets).

Moore is laughing at us foolish Americans all the way to the bank.

DENIS EGAN
SCOTTSDALE





...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Roger Gt
2004-07-05 18:35:39 UTC
Permalink
"Jim Thompson" <***@example.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: Letter-to-Editor in today's EV Tribune (Phoenix)....
:
: Moore film falsely depicts flight of Saudis
:
: Michael Moore's movie, "Fahrenheit 9/ll" informs us I that,
: immediately after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, while
U.S.
: airspace was closed to all commercial traffic, Bush arranged for
a
: special flight to secretly spirit Bush's friends, Bin Laden
family
: members, safely out of the country.
:
: The reality is the bin Laden's didn't leave the U.S. until U.S.
: airspace was re-opened and not at the arrangement of Bush but at
the
: urging of "terror czar" Richard Clark's of 9/11 commission fame,
who
: informed them that the U.S. couldn't ensure their safety.
:
: You remember him. He was the guy who told reporters in an
August 2002
: interview that Bush initiated a project, in the first week of
: February, 2001, to "increase CIA resources, for example the
covert
: action, fivefold (over Clinton's efforts), to go after al-Qaida"
and
: then went on to make verbatim contradictions of such statements
before
: the 9/11 commission (with his new Bush-bash book just hitting
the
: markets).
:
: Moore is laughing at us foolish Americans all the way to the
bank.
:
: DENIS EGAN
: SCOTTSDALE
: ...Jim Thompson


The Orange County Register did a feature piece in the Sunday
(last) edition. Debunked the entire movie. (It is NOT a
documentary!) Seems our Mr. Moore is a consummate liar! But you
all knew that! Right!

He uses actual film footage and implies, or infers some wrong
doing, then calls it a documentary due to using stock film
footage. He gets even more imaginative after that!

The frightening thing to me is that I have met some people who
believe every word without checking for themselves, and they
Vote!! Bad news for our country! (And the World)
K Williams
2004-07-05 22:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
: Letter-to-Editor in today's EV Tribune (Phoenix)....
: Moore film falsely depicts flight of Saudis
: Michael Moore's movie, "Fahrenheit 9/ll" informs us I that,
: immediately after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, while
U.S.
: airspace was closed to all commercial traffic, Bush arranged for
a
: special flight to secretly spirit Bush's friends, Bin Laden
family
: members, safely out of the country.
: The reality is the bin Laden's didn't leave the U.S. until U.S.
: airspace was re-opened and not at the arrangement of Bush but at
the
: urging of "terror czar" Richard Clark's of 9/11 commission fame,
who
: informed them that the U.S. couldn't ensure their safety.
: You remember him. He was the guy who told reporters in an
August 2002
: interview that Bush initiated a project, in the first week of
: February, 2001, to "increase CIA resources, for example the
covert
: action, fivefold (over Clinton's efforts), to go after al-Qaida"
and
: then went on to make verbatim contradictions of such statements
before
: the 9/11 commission (with his new Bush-bash book just hitting
the
: markets).
: Moore is laughing at us foolish Americans all the way to the
bank.
: DENIS EGAN
: SCOTTSDALE
: ...Jim Thompson
The Orange County Register did a feature piece in the Sunday
(last) edition. Debunked the entire movie. (It is NOT a
documentary!) Seems our Mr. Moore is a consummate liar! But you
all knew that! Right!
He uses actual film footage and implies, or infers some wrong
doing, then calls it a documentary due to using stock film
footage. He gets even more imaginative after that!
The frightening thing to me is that I have met some people who
believe every word without checking for themselves, and they
Vote!! Bad news for our country! (And the World)
Oh, but lies don't matter as long as you come out with the "right"
opinion and vote for the "right" party, right? ...means to an end, and
all.
--
Keith
John Larkin
2004-07-05 19:02:48 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:21:11 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
Letter-to-Editor in today's EV Tribune (Phoenix)....
Moore film falsely depicts flight of Saudis
Michael Moore's movie, "Fahrenheit 9/ll" informs us I that,
immediately after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, while U.S.
airspace was closed to all commercial traffic, Bush arranged for a
special flight to secretly spirit Bush's friends, Bin Laden family
members, safely out of the country.
The reality is the bin Laden's didn't leave the U.S. until U.S.
airspace was re-opened and not at the arrangement of Bush but at the
urging of "terror czar" Richard Clark's of 9/11 commission fame, who
informed them that the U.S. couldn't ensure their safety.
You remember him. He was the guy who told reporters in an August 2002
interview that Bush initiated a project, in the first week of
February, 2001, to "increase CIA resources, for example the covert
action, fivefold (over Clinton's efforts), to go after al-Qaida" and
then went on to make verbatim contradictions of such statements before
the 9/11 commission (with his new Bush-bash book just hitting the
markets).
Moore is laughing at us foolish Americans all the way to the bank.
DENIS EGAN
SCOTTSDALE
...Jim Thompson
Moore is just another step in the mindless cartoonization of American
politics, following in the footsteps of Ivans, Limbaugh, Conason, and
Coulter. Fortunately, we still have have a few thoughtful journalists,
and lots of people with common sense who inhabit the "flyover
territory" between the coasts. Americans are not, by nature, mean
people, and I expect an eventual reaction against all this meanness.

MM is especially annoying. He's getting rich off the American public
by telling us how stupid we are, thus proving himself correct.

John
Jim Thompson
2004-07-05 19:10:04 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 12:02:48 -0700, John Larkin
<***@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:

[snip]
Post by John Larkin
Moore is just another step in the mindless cartoonization of American
politics, following in the footsteps of Ivans, Limbaugh, Conason, and
Coulter. Fortunately, we still have have a few thoughtful journalists,
and lots of people with common sense who inhabit the "flyover
territory" between the coasts. Americans are not, by nature, mean
people, and I expect an eventual reaction against all this meanness.
MM is especially annoying. He's getting rich off the American public
by telling us how stupid we are, thus proving himself correct.
John
Yep. I contributed to his banking account by going to see his
diatribe, because I wanted to know what propaganda he was spouting.

"N" was so bored she wanted to leave, but we stuck it out to the end.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Chuck Harris
2004-07-05 21:45:44 UTC
Permalink
Gosh Jim, you should have at least paid to see
Harry Potter, and then snuck into the MM
film. That way he wouldn't be paid with good
republican money.

-Chuck Harris
Post by Jim Thompson
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 12:02:48 -0700, John Larkin
[snip]
Post by John Larkin
Moore is just another step in the mindless cartoonization of American
politics, following in the footsteps of Ivans, Limbaugh, Conason, and
Coulter. Fortunately, we still have have a few thoughtful journalists,
and lots of people with common sense who inhabit the "flyover
territory" between the coasts. Americans are not, by nature, mean
people, and I expect an eventual reaction against all this meanness.
MM is especially annoying. He's getting rich off the American public
by telling us how stupid we are, thus proving himself correct.
John
Yep. I contributed to his banking account by going to see his
diatribe, because I wanted to know what propaganda he was spouting.
"N" was so bored she wanted to leave, but we stuck it out to the end.
...Jim Thompson
Jim Thompson
2004-07-05 22:11:55 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:45:44 -0400, Chuck Harris
Post by Chuck Harris
Gosh Jim, you should have at least paid to see
Harry Potter, and then snuck into the MM
film. That way he wouldn't be paid with good
republican money.
-Chuck Harris
[snip]

I went on the second day of its showing. The demand was so great that
you queued up in a line outside the theater (indoors, this is one of
those 40-theater thingies), and an off-duty cop checked your ticket
stub.

And Harry Potter isn't my thing, though all the granddaughters are
avid fans.

I'm not as Republican as you might think. While registered*
Republican, and a serious hawk, I'm probably more attuned to
Libertarian thought. I absolutely don't like some Republican party
stances as regards religion, abortion, and gays (though I think we
need it to be called civil union and *not* marriage) .

* To vote in a primary in AZ you have to be Democrat or Republican.

It will surprise many here to learn that AZ is almost exactly split
50%/50% Democrat/Republican and that we have a Democrat, female,
governor... a true crap-head, perfect replica of Janet Reno ;-)

But Democrats here tend to be more right wing than East Coast
Republicans ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Rich Grise
2004-07-06 03:28:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:45:44 -0400, Chuck Harris
Post by Chuck Harris
Gosh Jim, you should have at least paid to see
Harry Potter, and then snuck into the MM
film. That way he wouldn't be paid with good
republican money.
-Chuck Harris
[snip]
I went on the second day of its showing. The demand was so great that
you queued up in a line outside the theater (indoors, this is one of
those 40-theater thingies), and an off-duty cop checked your ticket
stub.
We have The King Of The Krelboins checking stubs at ours. There's
something ooky about a nerd on a power trip.
Post by Jim Thompson
And Harry Potter isn't my thing, though all the granddaughters are
avid fans.
Stepford Wives? ;-)
Post by Jim Thompson
I'm not as Republican as you might think. While registered*
Republican, and a serious hawk, I'm probably more attuned to
Libertarian thought. I absolutely don't like some Republican party
stances as regards religion, abortion, and gays (though I think we
need it to be called civil union and *not* marriage) .
* To vote in a primary in AZ you have to be Democrat or Republican.
It will surprise many here to learn that AZ is almost exactly split
50%/50% Democrat/Republican and that we have a Democrat, female,
governor... a true crap-head, perfect replica of Janet Reno ;-)
But Democrats here tend to be more right wing than East Coast
Republicans ;-)
Heh - What would a Democrat Cowboy be like?
--
Cheers!
Rich
Chuck Harris
2004-07-06 12:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:45:44 -0400, Chuck Harris
Post by Chuck Harris
Gosh Jim, you should have at least paid to see
Harry Potter, and then snuck into the MM
film. That way he wouldn't be paid with good
republican money.
-Chuck Harris
[snip]
I went on the second day of its showing. The demand was so great that
you queued up in a line outside the theater (indoors, this is one of
those 40-theater thingies), and an off-duty cop checked your ticket
stub.
And Harry Potter isn't my thing, though all the granddaughters are
avid fans.
That's why I said to buy the Harry Potter ticket, and then watch the
MM movie.
Post by Jim Thompson
I'm not as Republican as you might think. While registered*
Republican, and a serious hawk, I'm probably more attuned to
Libertarian thought. I absolutely don't like some Republican party
stances as regards religion, abortion, and gays (though I think we
need it to be called civil union and *not* marriage) .
I started out as an avid Democrat. All Marylanders must, I suppose.
As I started to get my career in place, I got pissed with the party's
attitude that the state knows what is best for you. At the last time
I looked, 1/3 of the US population works for the "government"... and
more than 50% of my income goes to taxes and fees. Is it any wonder
that the US standard of living is heading for the dump?

I spent a few years vacillating over whether abortion rights were
more important than gun ownership. I finally decided that with the
power that women have achieved in our society, it would be nearly
impossible for the "right-to-lifer's" to completely outlaw abortion,
so gun control became my litmus test for a candidate. If a candidate
was for gun control, I was against absolutely against him!

It is kind of paradoxical, that for the first part of my life as a voter
I fought for legalized abortion, a predominantly women's issue, and for
the second part, I fought against gun control, also a predominantly
women's issue.

My beliefs fit firmly in the libertarian camp, but that doesn't really
matter politically, as the libertarians are a hopeless party. If you
want gun control and legal abortion, you vote democrat. If you want
gun freedom, and abortion, you vote Republican. The women are never
going to allow abortion to become illegal again, so that makes abortion
pretty much a moot issue.

-Chuck
Richard Henry
2004-07-06 18:39:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Harris
It is kind of paradoxical, that for the first part of my life as a voter
I fought for legalized abortion, a predominantly women's issue, and for
the second part, I fought against gun control, also a predominantly
women's issue.
Why is gun control a "women's issue"?
Bill Garber
2004-07-06 19:04:33 UTC
Permalink
"Richard Henry" <***@home.com> wrote in message news:jlCGc.10536$***@fed1read02...
:
: "Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-***@erols.com> wrote in message
: news:40eaa06f$0$3070$***@news.rcn.com...
: >
: > It is kind of paradoxical, that for the first part of my life
as a voter
: > I fought for legalized abortion, a predominantly women's
issue, and for
: > the second part, I fought against gun control, also a
predominantly
: > women's issue.
:
: Why is gun control a "women's issue"?

Because they WANT the control, WE don't! :o)

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - willy46pa @ comcast DOT net
Change DOT to a dot to contact me



---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/18/04
Chuck Harris
2004-07-07 12:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Henry
Post by Chuck Harris
It is kind of paradoxical, that for the first part of my life as a voter
I fought for legalized abortion, a predominantly women's issue, and for
the second part, I fought against gun control, also a predominantly
women's issue.
Why is gun control a "women's issue"?
It isn't specifically, it just seems that women tend to have less
knowledge of guns, and tend to be very susceptible to the emotional
appeals that the gun controller's use. For instance: "If it saves just
one child, it would be worth it!" Everyone should be for the idea of
saving our country's children, but when you weigh that one child's life
against the lives of the 3 million plus ordinary folks that successfully
defend themselves from criminals by using guns, that one child is,sadly,
insignificant.

Similarly, when the gun controllers tell you that our streets are
awash with machine guns that are cutting down crowds of children, lack
of knowledge of what a machine gun is might allow you to imagine that
a rifle that is similar in appearance to a "machine gun", but semi-
automatic, goes, "rat-a-tat-tat-tat-tat!" When in reality, it goes,
"pop......pop.....pop!" Just like the rifle uncle Joe uses to rid his
farm of groundhogs.

So, it is not really a "women's issue", but the seemingly inexhaustible
number of women that are ignorant of guns, gun uses, and current gun laws;
who end up being swayed by the gun controller's emotional appeals, and
gross distortions of the truth make it a "women's issue," in my eyes.

-Chuck Harris
Greg Pierce
2004-07-06 18:57:45 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:51:59 -0400, the highly esteemed Chuck Harris
Post by Jim Thompson
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:45:44 -0400, Chuck Harris
Gosh Jim, you should have at least paid to see Harry Potter, and then
snuck into the MM film. That way he wouldn't be paid with good
republican money.
-Chuck Harris
[snip]
I went on the second day of its showing. The demand was so great that
you queued up in a line outside the theater (indoors, this is one of
those 40-theater thingies), and an off-duty cop checked your ticket
stub.
And Harry Potter isn't my thing, though all the granddaughters are avid
fans.
That's why I said to buy the Harry Potter ticket, and then watch the MM
movie.
Post by Jim Thompson
I'm not as Republican as you might think. While registered* Republican,
and a serious hawk, I'm probably more attuned to Libertarian thought. I
absolutely don't like some Republican party stances as regards religion,
abortion, and gays (though I think we need it to be called civil union
and *not* marriage) .
I started out as an avid Democrat. All Marylanders must, I suppose. As I
started to get my career in place, I got pissed with the party's attitude
that the state knows what is best for you. At the last time I looked, 1/3
of the US population works for the "government"... and more than 50% of my
income goes to taxes and fees. Is it any wonder that the US standard of
living is heading for the dump?
I spent a few years vacillating over whether abortion rights were more
important than gun ownership. I finally decided that with the power that
women have achieved in our society, it would be nearly impossible for the
"right-to-lifer's" to completely outlaw abortion, so gun control became my
litmus test for a candidate. If a candidate was for gun control, I was
against absolutely against him!
It is kind of paradoxical, that for the first part of my life as a voter I
fought for legalized abortion, a predominantly women's issue, and for the
second part, I fought against gun control, also a predominantly women's
issue.
My beliefs fit firmly in the libertarian camp, but that doesn't really
matter politically, as the libertarians are a hopeless party. If you want
gun control and legal abortion, you vote democrat. If you want gun
freedom, and abortion, you vote Republican. The women are never going to
allow abortion to become illegal again, so that makes abortion pretty much
a moot issue.
-Chuck
As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.
--
Greg
John Larkin
2004-07-06 19:14:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Pierce
As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.
It's about people being dead, instead of merely yelled at or bruised.

John
Roger Gt
2004-07-06 19:30:04 UTC
Permalink
"John Larkin" <***@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com>
wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:57:45 -0700, Greg Pierce
<***@nospam.com>
: wrote:
:
: >As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.
: It's about people being dead, instead of merely yelled at or
bruised.
: John


"Gun Control" means hitting the intended target everytime!

Roger Gt
John Larkin
2004-07-06 20:48:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
: On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:57:45 -0700, Greg Pierce
: >As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.
: It's about people being dead, instead of merely yelled at or
bruised.
: John
"Gun Control" means hitting the intended target everytime!
Roger Gt
That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is more
likely to kill his own kids than a burgler. Damned kids are just
around the house a lot more than burglers.

John
Roger Gt
2004-07-06 21:19:14 UTC
Permalink
"John Larkin" <***@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com>
wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:30:04 GMT, "Roger Gt" <***@here.net>
wrote:
:
: >
: >"John Larkin" <***@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com>
: >wrote in message
: >news:***@4ax.com...
: >: On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:57:45 -0700, Greg Pierce
: ><***@nospam.com>
: >: wrote:
: >:
: >: >As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about
control.
: >: It's about people being dead, instead of merely yelled at or
: >bruised.
: >: John
: >
: >
: >"Gun Control" means hitting the intended target everytime!
: >
: >Roger Gt
: >
:
: That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is
more
: likely to kill his own kids than a burglar. Damned kids are just
: around the house a lot more than burglers.
: John

That's total BS! My entire family have handles and used guns for
as far back and we have records (About 1453) and while there have
been some mishaps, (During war) no one has been killed. That
whole story about the likelihood of killing your own family
members came from the Anti-American scum who think they should
control everyone's lives. Besides guns are a lot less dangerous
than the political despots who would try to take them away!

BTW, My brother kneecapped a burglar, so the police could pick him
up a couple blocks away. You do not always have to kill them.
The mere presence of the capability to put them down is usually
enough!

My Grandmother hated Guns, but she could bring down a dear at 200
yards with her carbine. And did many times. (a Model 76 pump) My
Mother had a carry permit, since she was a Private investigator.
She fired expert with both hands. I had a carry permit when I
turned 15, since I worked with my mother on many cases. My
Experience and training in the military convinced me that only a
corrupt government has anything to fear from an armed public! I
don't support such corruption!









%T
Richard Henry
2004-07-06 21:44:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
My Grandmother hated Guns, but she could bring down a dear at 200
yards with her carbine. And did many times.
So much for Gramps. How was she with wildlife?
Jim Thompson
2004-07-06 21:56:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Henry
Post by Roger Gt
My Grandmother hated Guns, but she could bring down a dear at 200
yards with her carbine. And did many times.
So much for Gramps. How was she with wildlife?
ROTFLMAO!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Robert C Monsen
2004-07-07 01:10:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
: >
: >wrote in message
: >: On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:57:45 -0700, Greg Pierce
: >: >As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about
control.
: >: It's about people being dead, instead of merely yelled at or
: >bruised.
: >: John
: >
: >
: >"Gun Control" means hitting the intended target everytime!
: >
: >Roger Gt
: >
: That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is
more
: likely to kill his own kids than a burglar. Damned kids are just
: around the house a lot more than burglers.
: John
That's total BS! My entire family have handles and used guns for
as far back and we have records (About 1453) and while there have
been some mishaps, (During war) no one has been killed. That
whole story about the likelihood of killing your own family
members came from the Anti-American scum who think they should
control everyone's lives. Besides guns are a lot less dangerous
than the political despots who would try to take them away!
Talk to a policeman or a fireman. All of their organizations are for
gun control. Why would that be, if gun ownership was 'helping' them?
Post by Roger Gt
BTW, My brother kneecapped a burglar, so the police could pick him
up a couple blocks away. You do not always have to kill them.
The mere presence of the capability to put them down is usually
enough!
Wow! Cool! Some poor teenager gets kneecapped cause he crawled into
the wrong house looking for a TV set. Probably on disability right
now. I guess your brother feels really proud of that! Who wouldn't?
Post by Roger Gt
My Grandmother hated Guns, but she could bring down a dear at 200
yards with her carbine. And did many times. (a Model 76 pump) My
Mother had a carry permit, since she was a Private investigator.
She fired expert with both hands. I had a carry permit when I
turned 15, since I worked with my mother on many cases. My
Experience and training in the military convinced me that only a
corrupt government has anything to fear from an armed public! I
don't support such corruption!
An army of grandmas armed with hunting rifles is going to hold back
those revennooers? Unlike you, they have a 'well trained militia',
with m16s and Apache attack helicopters. What do you and the grannies
have? A few rusty hunting rifles? The whole argument, which is used
again and again, is silly.

Our best weapon against those revennooers is our vote. Our best weapon
against crime is more opportunity for the poor, not more guns.

Bob Monsen
John Larkin
2004-07-07 02:21:21 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 01:10:13 GMT, "Robert C Monsen"
Post by Robert C Monsen
Post by Roger Gt
: >
: >wrote in message
: >: On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:57:45 -0700, Greg Pierce
: >: >As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about
control.
: >: It's about people being dead, instead of merely yelled at or
: >bruised.
: >: John
: >
: >
: >"Gun Control" means hitting the intended target everytime!
: >
: >Roger Gt
: >
: That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is
more
: likely to kill his own kids than a burglar. Damned kids are just
: around the house a lot more than burglers.
: John
That's total BS! My entire family have handles and used guns for
as far back and we have records (About 1453) and while there have
been some mishaps, (During war) no one has been killed. That
whole story about the likelihood of killing your own family
members came from the Anti-American scum who think they should
control everyone's lives. Besides guns are a lot less dangerous
than the political despots who would try to take them away!
Talk to a policeman or a fireman. All of their organizations are for
gun control. Why would that be, if gun ownership was 'helping' them?
The thing that really freaks out - and kills - cops is domestic
disputes involving guns.

John
Roger Gt
2004-07-07 02:42:08 UTC
Permalink
"Robert C Monsen" wrote
: "Roger Gt" wrote
: > "John Larkin" wrote
: > : "Roger Gt" wrote
: > : >"John Larkin" wrote
: > : >: Greg Pierce wrote:
: > : >: >As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about
: > : >: >control. It's about people being dead, instead of
: > : >: >merely yelled at or bruised. : John
: > : >
: > : >"Gun Control" means hitting the intended target everytime!
: > : >Roger Gt
: > :
: > : That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner
is
: > : more likely to kill his own kids than a burglar. Damned kids
: > : are just around the house a lot more than burglers. John
: >
: > That's total BS! My entire family have handled and used guns
for
: > as far back and we have records (About 1453) and while there
have
: > been some mishaps, (During war) no one has been killed. That
: > whole story about the likelihood of killing your own family
: > members came from the Anti-American scum who think they should
: > control everyone's lives. Besides guns are a lot less
dangerous
: > than the political despots who would try to take them away!
: >
:
: Talk to a policeman or a fireman. All of their organizations are
for
: gun control. Why would that be, if gun ownership was 'helping'
them?

Those are public servants, they are NOT in charge! Their opinion
is irrelevant to the constitution! Also, here in California
there are a lot of pissed off police who had their rifles
confiscated by the state. I really don't need to ask! Besides
the local NRA in full of Policemen who support the rights of all
honest citizens to own arms. They are also in the California
Pistol association. At least in the chapter I belong to.

If Those servants are in favor of violating the law they should be
fired without prejudice and possibly jailed for suborning a crime!

: > BTW, My brother kneecapped a burglar, so the police could pick
him
: > up a couple blocks away. You do not always have to kill them.
: > The mere presence of the capability to put them down is
usually
: > enough!
:
: Wow! Cool! Some poor teenager gets kneecapped cause he crawled
into
: the wrong house looking for a TV set. Probably on disability
right
: now. I guess your brother feels really proud of that! Who
wouldn't?

He does, the 47 year old drifter had been burglarizing various
places in the area for several months and the police had not been
able to catch him.
He can't run any more, but he walks ok with a cane. He and I both
use a cane, the difference is I can also own a gun, he is a
convicted felon. But you want to protect criminals don't you?
Criminals are after all the core of the Democratic party!

: > My Grandmother hated Guns, but she could bring down a dear at
200
: > yards with her carbine. And did many times. (a Model 76 pump)
My
: > Mother had a carry permit, since she was a Private
investigator.
: > She fired expert with both hands. I had a carry permit when I
: > turned 15, since I worked with my mother on many cases. My
: > Experience and training in the military convinced me that only
a
: > corrupt government has anything to fear from an armed public!
I
: > don't support such corruption!
: >
:
: An army of grandmas armed with hunting rifles is going to hold
back
: those revennooers? Unlike you, they have a 'well trained
militia',
: with m16s and Apache attack helicopters. What do you and the
grannies
: have? A few rusty hunting rifles? The whole argument, which is
used
: again and again, is silly.

Having been in the Military I can tell you that the Armed forces
of this country will not attack civilian targets in this country,
but they will repel invaders.

Your remark is the silliest thing I have ever heard. If you
really believe it, get help soon. No one allows a rifle to rust.
And I didn't suggest she would be fighting the forces of evil by
killing all the democrats in town, did I? Besides she died in
1994 at the age of 93.

: Our best weapon against those revennooers is our vote. Our best
weapon
: against crime is more opportunity for the poor, not more guns.
: Bob Monsen

I take it your poor! Since you favor welfare over freedom! I've
been there, but it only requires individual effort to move into a
better economic status, not welfare.

A vote IS violence against the government! They know it. But the
Constitution guarantees a right to own and bear arms, no
government in America has the right to revoke that!

I didn't want to restart a gun control vs. following the
Constitution discussion. Your the one who wants to violate the
Constitution!
Robert C Monsen
2004-07-07 06:12:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
: > : >: >As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about
: > : >: >control. It's about people being dead, instead of
: > : >: >merely yelled at or bruised. : John
: > : >
: > : >"Gun Control" means hitting the intended target everytime!
: > : >Roger Gt
: > : That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner
is
: > : more likely to kill his own kids than a burglar. Damned kids
: > : are just around the house a lot more than burglers. John
: >
: > That's total BS! My entire family have handled and used guns
for
: > as far back and we have records (About 1453) and while there
have
: > been some mishaps, (During war) no one has been killed. That
: > whole story about the likelihood of killing your own family
: > members came from the Anti-American scum who think they should
: > control everyone's lives. Besides guns are a lot less
dangerous
: > than the political despots who would try to take them away!
: >
: Talk to a policeman or a fireman. All of their organizations are
for
: gun control. Why would that be, if gun ownership was 'helping'
them?
Those are public servants, they are NOT in charge! Their opinion
is irrelevant to the constitution! Also, here in California
there are a lot of pissed off police who had their rifles
confiscated by the state. I really don't need to ask! Besides
the local NRA in full of Policemen who support the rights of all
honest citizens to own arms. They are also in the California
Pistol association. At least in the chapter I belong to.
All moot. The point is that guns are NOT helping them in their job.
Post by Roger Gt
If Those servants are in favor of violating the law they should be
fired without prejudice and possibly jailed for suborning a crime!
: > BTW, My brother kneecapped a burglar, so the police could pick
him
: > up a couple blocks away. You do not always have to kill them.
: > The mere presence of the capability to put them down is
usually
: > enough!
: Wow! Cool! Some poor teenager gets kneecapped cause he crawled
into
: the wrong house looking for a TV set. Probably on disability
right
: now. I guess your brother feels really proud of that! Who
wouldn't?
He does, the 47 year old drifter had been burglarizing various
places in the area for several months and the police had not been
able to catch him.
He can't run any more, but he walks ok with a cane. He and I both
use a cane, the difference is I can also own a gun, he is a
convicted felon. But you want to protect criminals don't you?
Criminals are after all the core of the Democratic party!
What a thing to say. Just because people don't believe what you
believe doesn't make them criminals.

If you are scared of burgulars, buy (or design and build!) a burgular
alarm. That works (if you set it!) 99% of the time. The other 1%, a
gun probably wouldn't have helped with, because smart burgulars (who
can get around an alarm) won't break in if somebody is home. They may
take your gun case, though, cause guns are, pound for pound, one of
the more expensive things you have in your house.
Post by Roger Gt
: > My Grandmother hated Guns, but she could bring down a dear at
200
: > yards with her carbine. And did many times. (a Model 76 pump)
My
: > Mother had a carry permit, since she was a Private
investigator.
: > She fired expert with both hands. I had a carry permit when I
: > turned 15, since I worked with my mother on many cases. My
: > Experience and training in the military convinced me that only
a
: > corrupt government has anything to fear from an armed public!
I
: > don't support such corruption!
: >
: An army of grandmas armed with hunting rifles is going to hold
back
: those revennooers? Unlike you, they have a 'well trained
militia',
: with m16s and Apache attack helicopters. What do you and the
grannies
: have? A few rusty hunting rifles? The whole argument, which is
used
: again and again, is silly.
Having been in the Military I can tell you that the Armed forces
of this country will not attack civilian targets in this country,
but they will repel invaders.
Ok, that means its not important for us to protect ourselves against
them by owning our (well oiled) guns? Wasn't that your justification
for owning guns? Protecting ourselves from big brother? My point was
that you aren't going to protect yourself from a soldier in a flak
jacket with an M16 by using a saturday night special or an old hunting
rifle. Its silly. Also, you aren't going to protect us from invasion.
Thats even sillier.
Post by Roger Gt
Your remark is the silliest thing I have ever heard. If you
really believe it, get help soon. No one allows a rifle to rust.
Ah, my stepfather let his guns rust. I'm sure lots of people do. They
just aren't very useful anymore.
Post by Roger Gt
And I didn't suggest she would be fighting the forces of evil by
killing all the democrats in town, did I? Besides she died in
1994 at the age of 93.
: Our best weapon against those revennooers is our vote. Our best
weapon
: against crime is more opportunity for the poor, not more guns.
: Bob Monsen
I take it your poor! Since you favor welfare over freedom! I've
been there, but it only requires individual effort to move into a
better economic status, not welfare.
Nobody said anything about welfare. However, you may have been reading
the papers recently, and noticed that wages are going down, jobs are
scarce, and most of this ends up on the heads of minorities. Did you
know that the number of blacks that are unemployed is double that of
whites? Further, did you know that crime statistics correlate quite
nicely with unemployment statistics? That was my point. Caring for the
disadvantaged is in the priviledged class' enlightened self interest.
Post by Roger Gt
A vote IS violence against the government! They know it. But the
Constitution guarantees a right to own and bear arms, no
government in America has the right to revoke that!
I didn't want to restart a gun control vs. following the
Constitution discussion. Your the one who wants to violate the
Constitution!
It always comes down to this. Have you ever actually read the second
ammendment, as opposed to what gets printed in those NRA handouts? If
so, which part of "a well-regulated militia" are you and your gun
going to be part of? Or, is the NRA now forming a militia? The
founders were talking about the national guard, for crissakes, state
militias. They don't make you bring your own gun anymore, and wouldn't
let you use it even if you brought it.

The essential point is that NRA members own guns as toys. They are
playthings, to be fondled and savored and collected and taken out and
shown off on weekends on the firing range. There are hunters, but
thats a game too, not required for survival. Guns are also supposedly
for protection, but that's a fantasy, not borne out by statistics or
common sense. You are far more likely to use your handgun in an
argument with your spouse, or in a traffic dispute, or in a suicide,
(or by proxy, in a crime, like John Larken's gun is probably being
used now) than you are protecting your family in any meaningful way.

Gun ownership is a harkening back to the frontier days, when guns were
actually important for survival and protection. That day is long past,
thank God and Reason.

Bob Monsen
Roger Gt
2004-07-07 08:34:08 UTC
Permalink
"Robert C Monsen" wrote
: "Roger Gt" wrote
: > "Robert C Monsen" wrote
: > : "Roger Gt" wrote
: > : > "John Larkin" wrote
: > : > : "Roger Gt" wrote
: > : > : >"John Larkin" wrote
: > : > : >: Greg Pierce wrote:
: > : > : >: >As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's
about
: > : > : >: >control. It's about people being dead, instead of
: > : > : >: >merely yelled at or bruised. : John
: > : > : >
: > : > : >"Gun Control" means hitting the intended target
everytime!
: > : > : >Roger Gt
: > : > :
: > : > : That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun
owner
: > is
: > : > : more likely to kill his own kids than a burglar. Damned
kids
: > : > : are just around the house a lot more than burglers. John
: > : >
: > : > That's total BS! My entire family have handled and used
guns
: > for as far back and we have records (About 1453) and while
there
: > have been some mishaps, (During war) no one has been killed.
That
: > : > whole story about the likelihood of killing your own
family
: > : > members came from the Anti-American scum who think they
should
: > : > control everyone's lives. Besides guns are a lot less
: > dangerous than the political despots who would try to take
them away!
: > :
: > : Talk to a policeman or a fireman. All of their organizations
are
: > : for gun control. Why would that be, if gun ownership was
'helping'
: > : them?
: >
: > Those are public servants, they are NOT in charge! Their
opinion
: > is irrelevant to the constitution! Also, here in California
: > there are a lot of pissed off police who had their rifles
: > confiscated by the state. I really don't need to ask!
Besides
: > the local NRA in full of Policemen who support the rights of
all
: > honest citizens to own arms. They are also in the California
: > Pistol association. At least in the chapter I belong to.
:
: All moot. The point is that guns are NOT helping them in their
job.

No! If they didn't carry, or use guns your thin argument might
(only might) carry some weight. It has nothing to do with
"Helping them" to do what they are hired to do. If guns are "Not
Helping them" do their jobs THEY should give them up for something
more helpful! BUT they can not propose (except as individuals)
any ban or confiscation of the publics arms.

: > If Those servants are in favor of violating the law they
should be
: > fired without prejudice and possibly jailed for suborning a
crime!
: >
<snip>
: > : > BTW, My brother kneecapped a burglar, so the police could
pick
: > : > him up a couple blocks away. You do not always have to
kill them.
: > : > The mere presence of the capability to put them down is
: > : >usually enough!
: > :
: > : Wow! Cool! Some poor teenager gets kneecapped cause he
crawled
: > : into the wrong house looking for a TV set. Probably on
disability
: > : right now. I guess your brother feels really proud of that!
Who
: > : wouldn't?
: >
: > He does, the 47 year old drifter had been burglarizing various
: > places in the area for several months and the police had not
been
: > able to catch him.
: > He can't run any more, but he walks ok with a cane. He and I
both
: > use a cane, the difference is I can also own a gun, he is a
: > convicted felon. But you want to protect criminals don't you?
: > Criminals are after all the core of the Democratic party!
:
: What a thing to say. Just because people don't believe what you
: believe doesn't make them criminals.

So believing that crime is a good profession doesn't make them
criminals? I agree, committing the crime does!

But You are truly dense! Democrats are the ones proposing the
lame laws to restrict private ownership, they do everything to
protect the criminal from the honest citizen who will try to
protect their property or lives by disarming them, the law however
says you can not require a criminal to register or turn in their
weapon because doing so will self incriminate them. (5th
Amendment) So the laws the Democrats propose protect the criminal
from harm while engaging in the criminal activity.

: If you are scared of burglars, buy (or design and build!) a
burglar
: alarm. That works (if you set it!) 99% of the time. The other
1%, a
: gun probably wouldn't have helped with, because smart burgulars
(who
: can get around an alarm) won't break in if somebody is home.
They may
: take your gun case, though, cause guns are, pound for pound, one
of
: the more expensive things you have in your house.

My Burglar alarm is made by Mossburg! Works fine. also use a
perimeter warning system I designed for the US military to detect
anyone approaching my home at night, or when I am away.

BTW: My gun case is buried in about three tons of concrete in the
floor of my home. And that safe does not contain my most valuable
items.

<snip>
: > Having been in the Military I can tell you that the Armed
forces
: > of this country will not attack civilian targets in this
country,
: > but they will repel invaders.
:
: Ok, that means its not important for us to protect ourselves
against
: them by owning our (well oiled) guns?
You are grasping at straws, your inability to understand is
annoying!

: Wasn't that your justification for owning guns?
No!
: Protecting ourselves from big brother?
Not the only function!
: My point was that you aren't going to protect yourself
: from a soldier in a flak jacket with an M16 by using a
: saturday night special or an old hunting rifle. Its silly.
I could, if there were only a few!

: Also, you aren't going to protect us from invasion.
That is the primary function of the militia, along with prevention
of crime, capturing and turning in criminals, and the entire list
of the duties you have never bothered to read about!

: Thats even sillier.
Like your lame position?

If I were to have to go up against a trained military force I
would use the tactics I learned in gorilla warfare classes. A
BMG50 will pierce any body armor anyway.
But the US Military is not the problem, you are!

: > Your remark is the silliest thing I have ever heard. If you
: > really believe it, get help soon. No one allows a rifle to
rust.
: Ah, my stepfather let his guns rust. I'm sure lots of people do.
They
: just aren't very useful anymore.

Two Fools! Figures!

<snip>
: > : Our best weapon against those revennooers is our vote. Our
best
: > weapon
: > : against crime is more opportunity for the poor, not more
guns.
: > : Bob Monsen
: >
: > I take it your poor! Since you favor welfare over freedom!
I've
: > been there, but it only requires individual effort to move
into a
: > better economic status, not welfare.
:
: Nobody said anything about welfare.

Actually YOU did! Indirectly, since all public servants ARE
functionally on welfare! (They receive money from the government!)
No one said anything about "revennooers" until you interjected
that bastardized word into the discussion. The language of an
literate? What the hell is it? I'm not into dialects!

: However, you may have been reading
: the papers recently, and noticed that wages are going down, jobs
are
: scarce, and most of this ends up on the heads of minorities. Did
you
: know that the number of blacks that are unemployed is double
that of
: whites? Further, did you know that crime statistics correlate
quite
: nicely with unemployment statistics? That was my point. Caring
for the
: disadvantaged is in the privileged class' enlightened self
interest.

First the Democrats support a policy that results in a reduction
in income for the average citizen, then tax the same citizen to
pay welfare to buy off criminals? You make no sense!

Keeping your gun serviceable is also in your best interests, but
you neglect self defense in favor of paying a toll to the unruly!

: > A vote IS violence against the government! They know it. But
the
: > Constitution guarantees a right to own and bear arms, no
: > government in America has the right to revoke that!
: >
: > I didn't want to restart a gun control vs. following the
: > Constitution discussion. Your the one who wants to violate
the
: > Constitution!
:
: It always comes down to this. Have you ever actually read the
second
: ammendment, as opposed to what gets printed in those NRA
handouts? If
: so, which part of "a well-regulated militia" are you and your
gun
: going to be part of? Or, is the NRA now forming a militia? The
: founders were talking about the national guard, for crissakes,
state
: militias. They don't make you bring your own gun anymore, and
wouldn't
: let you use it even if you brought it.

So? Yes, unlike yourself, I have read it, and the papers and
discussion about it by the founders. James Madison said it
included "Swords, muskets, and cannon, and all the terrible
weapons of war!" If your mentally fit and a citizen you ARE a
member of that militia!

When asked what the Militia was, George Mason, one of the Framers
of the U.S. Constitution, said, "Who are the Militia? They consist
now of the whole people, except for a few public officers." Yet we
also see statutes like 10 USC 311, which defines it as "all able-
bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in
section 13 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or have
made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United
States." Some state statutes define it as "able-bodied males" of
different age ranges, such as 16 through 59.
For a complete history of the Militia See:

http://www.city-net.com/~davekle/what_mil.htm

: The essential point is that NRA members own guns as toys.
There is nothing essential about it, your language is at the third
grade level.

: They are playthings, to be fondled and savored and collected
: and taken out and shown off on weekends on the firing range.

Is that a sentence? What were you trying to say?

: There are hunters, but
: thats a game too, not required for survival. Guns are also
supposedly
: for protection, but that's a fantasy, not borne out by
statistics or
: common sense. You are far more likely to use your handgun in an
: argument with your spouse, or in a traffic dispute, or in a
suicide,
: (or by proxy, in a crime, like John Larken's gun is probably
being
: used now) than you are protecting your family in any meaningful
way.

Your delusions are not germane to any rational discussion.

: Gun ownership is a harkening back to the frontier days, when
guns were
: actually important for survival and protection.

As they are now! In the Frontier days there was less crime and
far fewer murders (per/100,000 population) than now, it is much
more dangerous now!

: That day is long past,
: thank God and Reason.

God and Reason are strangers. God doesn't believe in reason! As
her yourself if you don't believe me!
xray
2004-07-07 09:25:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
My Burglar alarm is made by Mossburg! Works fine. also use a
perimeter warning system I designed for the US military to detect
anyone approaching my home at night, or when I am away.
Just a thought about possible efficient use of these weapons and good
test cases.

I have heard of the term "suicide by cop". You all probably have heard
of it. Some person who wants to end his life but doesn't have the
courage to actually do the deed himself (could read some Christian text
in here but I don't fer sure know about their motivation) decides to
confront the local police and provoke them to shoot him.

So, I'm thinking, you guys who keep arms on the premisses to defend
against the dangerous enemys that are surrounding you, could perform a
public service by posting your addresses on the internet. The real
robbers could avoid your place (for safety) just by checking, and the
suicide guys could make an appointment to get shot. This could take a
lot of stress off of our legally appointed law inforcement folks. It
would also give you weapon holders a chance to see if you really are up
to using your rights when it comes right down to it. And if you can
actually shoot straight when you need to.

Whaddaya think? Sounds like a win win to me.
Chuck Harris
2004-07-07 13:39:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by xray
So, I'm thinking, you guys who keep arms on the premisses to defend
against the dangerous enemys that are surrounding you, could perform a
public service by posting your addresses on the internet. The real
robbers could avoid your place (for safety) just by checking, and the
suicide guys could make an appointment to get shot. This could take a
lot of stress off of our legally appointed law inforcement folks. It
would also give you weapon holders a chance to see if you really are up
to using your rights when it comes right down to it. And if you can
actually shoot straight when you need to.
Whaddaya think? Sounds like a win win to me.
I think it would be more useful for you guys that believe so
firmly in gun control to post signs in front of your houses saying

"This is a GUN FREE HOUSE"

-Chuck

The US is one of the only countries where more burglaries happen
when houses ares empty, then when people are home. The burglars
don't want to get shot!
Roger Gt
2004-07-07 17:42:34 UTC
Permalink
"Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-***@erols.com> wrote in message news:40ebfd17$0$3073$***@news.rcn.com...
:
: I think it would be more useful for you guys that believe so
: firmly in gun control to post signs in front of your houses
saying
:
: "This is a GUN FREE HOUSE"
: -Chuck
: The US is one of the only countries where more burglaries happen
: when houses ares empty, then when people are home. The burglars
: don't want to get shot!

This would certainly allow the criminals to only go where a
supporter lives for his /her booty! Save everyone a lot of worry
since the very people who wish to protect criminals would support
them! Seems fair!
Robert C Monsen
2004-07-07 19:50:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
: > : > : >: >As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's
about
: > : > : >: >control. It's about people being dead, instead of
: > : > : >: >merely yelled at or bruised. : John
: > : > : >
: > : > : >"Gun Control" means hitting the intended target
everytime!
: > : > : >Roger Gt
: > : > : That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun
owner
: > is
: > : > : more likely to kill his own kids than a burglar. Damned
kids
: > : > : are just around the house a lot more than burglers. John
: > : >
: > : > That's total BS! My entire family have handled and used
guns
: > for as far back and we have records (About 1453) and while
there
: > have been some mishaps, (During war) no one has been killed.
That
: > : > whole story about the likelihood of killing your own
family
: > : > members came from the Anti-American scum who think they
should
: > : > control everyone's lives. Besides guns are a lot less
: > dangerous than the political despots who would try to take
them away!
: > : Talk to a policeman or a fireman. All of their organizations
are
: > : for gun control. Why would that be, if gun ownership was
'helping'
: > : them?
: >
: > Those are public servants, they are NOT in charge! Their
opinion
: > is irrelevant to the constitution! Also, here in California
: > there are a lot of pissed off police who had their rifles
: > confiscated by the state. I really don't need to ask!
Besides
: > the local NRA in full of Policemen who support the rights of
all
: > honest citizens to own arms. They are also in the California
: > Pistol association. At least in the chapter I belong to.
: All moot. The point is that guns are NOT helping them in their
job.
No! If they didn't carry, or use guns your thin argument might
(only might) carry some weight. It has nothing to do with
"Helping them" to do what they are hired to do. If guns are "Not
Helping them" do their jobs THEY should give them up for something
more helpful! BUT they can not propose (except as individuals)
any ban or confiscation of the publics arms.
No, again, simply, the point is that YOU having a gun doesn't help
THEM. Please, pay attention.
Post by Roger Gt
: > If Those servants are in favor of violating the law they
should be
: > fired without prejudice and possibly jailed for suborning a
crime!
: >
<snip>
: > : > BTW, My brother kneecapped a burglar, so the police could
pick
: > : > him up a couple blocks away. You do not always have to
kill them.
: > : > The mere presence of the capability to put them down is
: > : >usually enough!
: > : Wow! Cool! Some poor teenager gets kneecapped cause he
crawled
: > : into the wrong house looking for a TV set. Probably on
disability
: > : right now. I guess your brother feels really proud of that!
Who
: > : wouldn't?
: >
: > He does, the 47 year old drifter had been burglarizing various
: > places in the area for several months and the police had not
been
: > able to catch him.
: > He can't run any more, but he walks ok with a cane. He and I
both
: > use a cane, the difference is I can also own a gun, he is a
: > convicted felon. But you want to protect criminals don't you?
: > Criminals are after all the core of the Democratic party!
: What a thing to say. Just because people don't believe what you
: believe doesn't make them criminals.
So believing that crime is a good profession doesn't make them
criminals? I agree, committing the crime does!
This is really getting lame. You attempt to misdirect what I'm saying
again and again. Can't your arguments, such as they are, stand up to
any scrutiny?
Post by Roger Gt
But You are truly dense! Democrats are the ones proposing the
lame laws to restrict private ownership, they do everything to
protect the criminal from the honest citizen who will try to
protect their property or lives by disarming them, the law however
says you can not require a criminal to register or turn in their
weapon because doing so will self incriminate them. (5th
Amendment) So the laws the Democrats propose protect the criminal
from harm while engaging in the criminal activity.
I believe you are trying to say that you believe Democrats are
fostering crime by attempting to enact legislation that would limit
gun ownership, thereby protecting criminals, since honest citizens
could otherwise protect themselves and their property with their guns.

You also seem to be saying that its illegal for criminals to turn in
guns, because by doing so, they would be incriminating themselves.
Requiring them to do so is thus a violation of the 5th ammendment,
which states that a person may not be forced to testify against
himself in a court of law.

If that is what you are saying, then I would counter on two fronts.
First, my belief is that private gun ownership does not, in fact,
deter crime. Neighborhoods with more guns are subject to more crime.
If gun ownership prevented crime, that would probably not be true.

Secondly, many guns that are owned by criminals are unregistered.
Since they are already illegal, the criminals are already supposed to
give them up, or be subject to prosecution. So, this is already the
case; if they decide to give up the weapons voluntarily, and that act
is used to prosecute them for illegal gun ownership, they are
voluntarily giving up the weapon, and thus volunteering the
information. There is nothing in the 5th ammendment which precludes
one from giving testimony against oneself. Its only stated that one
cannot be forced to give such testimony. If, on the other hand, they
do NOT give up the weapon, and it is discovered, they can be
prosecuted without their own testimony. Thus, your point is both silly
and moot.
Post by Roger Gt
: If you are scared of burglars, buy (or design and build!) a
burglar
: alarm. That works (if you set it!) 99% of the time. The other
1%, a
: gun probably wouldn't have helped with, because smart burgulars
(who
: can get around an alarm) won't break in if somebody is home.
They may
: take your gun case, though, cause guns are, pound for pound, one
of
: the more expensive things you have in your house.
My Burglar alarm is made by Mossburg! Works fine. also use a
perimeter warning system I designed for the US military to detect
anyone approaching my home at night, or when I am away.
BTW: My gun case is buried in about three tons of concrete in the
floor of my home. And that safe does not contain my most valuable
items.
<snip>
: > Having been in the Military I can tell you that the Armed
forces
: > of this country will not attack civilian targets in this
country,
: > but they will repel invaders.
: Ok, that means its not important for us to protect ourselves
against
: them by owning our (well oiled) guns?
You are grasping at straws, your inability to understand is
annoying!
You also have a tendency to ad hominem attack. Please, try to be
civil. If you are wrong, be a man and admit it. If you are right, back
it up with rational arguments. Don't call democrats 'criminals', or
call me 'lame', simply because you have no argument.
Post by Roger Gt
: Wasn't that your justification for owning guns?
No!
: Protecting ourselves from big brother?
Not the only function!
: My point was that you aren't going to protect yourself
: from a soldier in a flak jacket with an M16 by using a
: saturday night special or an old hunting rifle. Its silly.
I could, if there were only a few!
: Also, you aren't going to protect us from invasion.
That is the primary function of the militia, along with prevention
of crime, capturing and turning in criminals, and the entire list
of the duties you have never bothered to read about!
These were duties that were required of us in the 1780s? Well, times
have changed for some of us.
Post by Roger Gt
: Thats even sillier.
Like your lame position?
If I were to have to go up against a trained military force I
would use the tactics I learned in gorilla warfare classes. A
BMG50 will pierce any body armor anyway.
But the US Military is not the problem, you are!
: > Your remark is the silliest thing I have ever heard. If you
: > really believe it, get help soon. No one allows a rifle to
rust.
: Ah, my stepfather let his guns rust. I'm sure lots of people do.
They
: just aren't very useful anymore.
Two Fools! Figures!
Again with the attacks. You really shouldn't get so worked up. My
father in law didn't need the guns, he no longer hunted, and didn't
really expect to be called up to serve the minutemen.
Post by Roger Gt
<snip>
: > : Our best weapon against those revennooers is our vote. Our
best
: > weapon
: > : against crime is more opportunity for the poor, not more
guns.
: > : Bob Monsen
: >
: > I take it your poor! Since you favor welfare over freedom!
I've
: > been there, but it only requires individual effort to move
into a
: > better economic status, not welfare.
: Nobody said anything about welfare.
Actually YOU did!
No, I didn't.

Indirectly, since all public servants ARE
Post by Roger Gt
functionally on welfare!
Are you talking about the ones that educate our kids? Or the ones that
build our roads? Which ones are you talking about, I think you should
explain yourself here, so everybody can understand the depth of your
thought.

(They receive money from the government!)
Post by Roger Gt
No one said anything about "revennooers" until you interjected
that bastardized word into the discussion. The language of an
literate? What the hell is it? I'm not into dialects!
Sorry, it was a joke, referring to a certain form of anti-government
activity (moonshine). I'll try to keep my remarks simple for you in
the future.
Post by Roger Gt
: However, you may have been reading
: the papers recently, and noticed that wages are going down, jobs
are
: scarce, and most of this ends up on the heads of minorities. Did
you
: know that the number of blacks that are unemployed is double
that of
: whites? Further, did you know that crime statistics correlate
quite
: nicely with unemployment statistics? That was my point. Caring
for the
: disadvantaged is in the privileged class' enlightened self
interest.
First the Democrats support a policy that results in a reduction
in income for the average citizen, then tax the same citizen to
pay welfare to buy off criminals? You make no sense!
You don't have any evidence to back that up.
Post by Roger Gt
Keeping your gun serviceable is also in your best interests, but
you neglect self defense in favor of paying a toll to the unruly!
No, as I pointed out, (in a civil way, I might add,) I believe that
when you own a gun, serviceable or not, it is NOT in anyone's best
interests.
Post by Roger Gt
: > A vote IS violence against the government! They know it. But
the
: > Constitution guarantees a right to own and bear arms, no
: > government in America has the right to revoke that!
: >
: > I didn't want to restart a gun control vs. following the
: > Constitution discussion. Your the one who wants to violate
the
: > Constitution!
: It always comes down to this. Have you ever actually read the
second
: ammendment, as opposed to what gets printed in those NRA
handouts? If
: so, which part of "a well-regulated militia" are you and your
gun
: going to be part of? Or, is the NRA now forming a militia? The
: founders were talking about the national guard, for crissakes,
state
: militias. They don't make you bring your own gun anymore, and
wouldn't
: let you use it even if you brought it.
So? Yes, unlike yourself, I have read it, and the papers and
discussion about it by the founders. James Madison said it
included "Swords, muskets, and cannon, and all the terrible
weapons of war!" If your mentally fit and a citizen you ARE a
member of that militia!
Isn't that nice! And so appropriate for 2004!
Post by Roger Gt
When asked what the Militia was, George Mason, one of the Framers
of the U.S. Constitution, said, "Who are the Militia? They consist
now of the whole people, except for a few public officers." Yet we
also see statutes like 10 USC 311, which defines it as "all able-
bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in
section 13 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or have
made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United
States." Some state statutes define it as "able-bodied males" of
different age ranges, such as 16 through 59.
http://www.city-net.com/~davekle/what_mil.htm
: The essential point is that NRA members own guns as toys.
There is nothing essential about it, your language is at the third
grade level.
: They are playthings, to be fondled and savored and collected
: and taken out and shown off on weekends on the firing range.
Is that a sentence? What were you trying to say?
You really didn't understand what I was trying to say? I guess I'll
have to word things more carefully for you in the future.
Post by Roger Gt
: There are hunters, but
: thats a game too, not required for survival. Guns are also
supposedly
: for protection, but that's a fantasy, not borne out by
statistics or
: common sense. You are far more likely to use your handgun in an
: argument with your spouse, or in a traffic dispute, or in a
suicide,
: (or by proxy, in a crime, like John Larken's gun is probably
being
: used now) than you are protecting your family in any meaningful
way.
Your delusions are not germane to any rational discussion.
Cover your ears, close your eyes, and hum all you want. Guns don't
make people safer. They are dangerous in the best of situations, allow
impulse to translate into deadly action much more readily than other
weapons, and are prone to falling into the hands of criminals.
Post by Roger Gt
: Gun ownership is a harkening back to the frontier days, when
guns were
: actually important for survival and protection.
As they are now! In the Frontier days there was less crime and
far fewer murders (per/100,000 population) than now, it is much
more dangerous now!
That might have something to do with the fact that there are far more
handguns now, per person, than there was back then.

My point was that guns were tools on the frontier and in rural
America. Guns were used for hunting and for protection. Now, they are
used for recreation by middle aged NRA members. Police are forced to
use them for protection due to their proliferation in society. Owning
a gun does not make you or your family safer. It makes you more likely
to be killed or injured by a gun.
Post by Roger Gt
: That day is long past,
: thank God and Reason.
God and Reason are strangers. God doesn't believe in reason! As
her yourself if you don't believe me!
And best regards to you too!

Bob Monsen
Jim Thompson
2004-07-07 20:57:46 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:50:29 GMT, "Robert C Monsen"
<***@comcast.net> wrote:

[snip]
Post by Robert C Monsen
If that is what you are saying, then I would counter on two fronts.
First, my belief is that private gun ownership does not, in fact,
deter crime. Neighborhoods with more guns are subject to more crime.
If gun ownership prevented crime, that would probably not be true.
[snip]
Post by Robert C Monsen
Bob Monsen
Please cite some *facts*/*references* to support your statements
above.

There is a town (in Georgia if I remember correctly) that *requires*
every citizen to own a gun. Result, burglaries went virtually to
zero.

Here, in Phoenix, where it's legal to carry, even without a permit, if
the gun is visible, have a **much** lower crime rate than New York
City, where guns are theoretically banned.

Now we do suffer from an occasional gun battle amongst "illegals",
but, to my mind, they're expendable anyway ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Robert C Monsen
2004-07-07 22:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:50:29 GMT, "Robert C Monsen"
[snip]
Post by Robert C Monsen
If that is what you are saying, then I would counter on two fronts.
First, my belief is that private gun ownership does not, in fact,
deter crime. Neighborhoods with more guns are subject to more
crime.
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Robert C Monsen
If gun ownership prevented crime, that would probably not be true.
[snip]
Post by Robert C Monsen
Bob Monsen
Please cite some *facts*/*references* to support your statements
above.
http://www2.gol.com/users/coynerhm/gun_control.htm
Post by Jim Thompson
There is a town (in Georgia if I remember correctly) that *requires*
every citizen to own a gun. Result, burglaries went virtually to
zero.
Here, in Phoenix, where it's legal to carry, even without a permit, if
the gun is visible, have a **much** lower crime rate than New York
City, where guns are theoretically banned.
Now we do suffer from an occasional gun battle amongst "illegals",
but, to my mind, they're expendable anyway ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Jim Thompson
2004-07-07 22:43:11 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:37:47 GMT, "Robert C Monsen"
[snip]
Post by Robert C Monsen
Post by Jim Thompson
Please cite some *facts*/*references* to support your statements
above.
http://www2.gol.com/users/coynerhm/gun_control.htm
[snip]

Sounds like your typical liberal BS to me ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Roger Gt
2004-07-07 21:16:42 UTC
Permalink
Random <snips> of dead portions of the thread. Not all labeled!

"Robert C Monsen" <***@comcast.net> wrote in message news:9uYGc.7645$***@attbi_s51...

: > No! If they didn't carry, or use guns your thin argument might
: > (only might) carry some weight. It has nothing to do with
: > "Helping them" to do what they are hired to do. If guns are
"Not
: > Helping them" do their jobs THEY should give them up for
something
: > more helpful! BUT they can not propose (except as
individuals)
: > any ban or confiscation of the publics arms.
:
: No, again, simply, the point is that YOU having a gun doesn't
help
: THEM. Please, pay attention.

That was not what YOU said! And providing a deterrent is one way
to reduce crime (according to my local police department) like a
neighborhood watch.

: > So believing that crime is a good profession doesn't make them
: > criminals? I agree, committing the crime does!
:
: This is really getting lame. You attempt to misdirect what I'm
saying
: again and again. Can't your arguments, such as they are, stand
up to
: any scrutiny?

There was no "Misdirection, I was working with your poorly stated
position.

: > But You are truly dense! Democrats are the ones proposing the
: > lame laws to restrict private ownership, they do everything to
: > protect the criminal from the honest citizen who will try to
: > protect their property or lives by disarming them, the law
however
: > says you can not require a criminal to register or turn in
their
: > weapon because doing so will self incriminate them. (5th
: > Amendment) So the laws the Democrats propose protect the
criminal
: > from harm while engaging in the criminal activity.
:
: I believe you are trying to say that you believe Democrats are
: fostering crime by attempting to enact legislation that would
limit
: gun ownership, thereby protecting criminals, since honest
citizens
: could otherwise protect themselves and their property with their
guns.

Close, They (the demon-Rats) are protecting the criminals!

: You also seem to be saying that its illegal for criminals to
turn in
: guns, because by doing so, they would be incriminating
themselves.
: Requiring them to do so is thus a violation of the 5th
amendment,
: which states that a person may not be forced to testify against
: himself in a court of law.

No, a law to require a criminal to turn in his guns is
unenforceable BECAUSE he IS A CRIMINAL. Court ruling!

: If that is what you are saying, then I would counter on two
fronts.
: First, my belief is that private gun ownership does not, in
fact,
: deter crime. Neighborhoods with more guns are subject to more
crime.
: If gun ownership prevented crime, that would probably not be
true.

Your belief is irrelevant! I live in an area with 60% gun owners
and crime is minimal here. Occasional car, or burglary, and some
drugs or a DUI. But at a very low rate. There are substantial
studies that establish just that, and a city that requires gun
ownership and training is almost crime free.

: Secondly, many guns that are owned by criminals are
unregistered.
: Since they are already illegal, the criminals are already
supposed to
: give them up, or be subject to prosecution. So, this is already
the
: case; if they decide to give up the weapons voluntarily, and
that act
: is used to prosecute them for illegal gun ownership, they are
: voluntarily giving up the weapon, and thus volunteering the
: information. There is nothing in the 5th amendment which
precludes
: one from giving testimony against oneself. Its only stated that
one
: cannot be forced to give such testimony. If, on the other hand,
they
: do NOT give up the weapon, and it is discovered, they can be
: prosecuted without their own testimony. Thus, your point is both
silly
: and moot.

Few guns are "registered" since that would be a constitutional
violation!
Only Machine guns, large caliber weapons (Cannons and larger than
50 caliber) which require a CLASS 100 License.

: > You are grasping at straws, your inability to understand is
: > annoying!

Your inability to make a rational statement without later
quibbling is also annoying!

: You also have a tendency to ad hominem attack. Please, try to be
: civil. If you are wrong, be a man and admit it. If you are
right, back
: it up with rational arguments. Don't call democrats 'criminals',
or
: call me 'lame', simply because you have no argument.

No, I have criticized your lack of clear verifiable statements and
your shifting to deliberate false statistics and other tired,
trite methods, and propaganda of the Gun control freaks.

I said that the statement was Lame, I haven't called you anything.
": > Like your lame position?"

When you start doubting your making a point you resort to implied
insults and attacks. I call them as I see them, and you can not
alter my opinion on anything. You clearly have no standing!

: > : Also, you aren't going to protect us from invasion.
: > That is the primary function of the militia, along with
prevention
: > of crime, capturing and turning in criminals, and the entire
list
: > of the duties you have never bothered to read about!
:
: These were duties that were required of us in the 1780s? Well,
times
: have changed for some of us.

They haven't changed at all! Neither has the need.
Oh! I'm sorry, are you saying you've been convicted of a felony?
Then your right! Your position is much clearer if that is the
case!

: > : Ah, my stepfather let his guns rust. I'm sure lots of people
do.
: > : They just aren't very useful anymore.
: > Two Fools! Figures!
:
: Again with the attacks. You really shouldn't get so worked up.
My
: father in law didn't need the guns, he no longer hunted, and
didn't
: really expect to be called up to serve the minutemen.

Characterization, not an attack! I am not worked up, I am
disgusted!

: > : Nobody said anything about welfare.
: > Actually YOU did!
: No, I didn't.

Another Lie?

: Indirectly, since all public servants ARE
: > functionally on welfare!
:
: Are you talking about the ones that educate our kids? Or the
ones that
: build our roads? Which ones are you talking about, I think you
should
: explain yourself here, so everybody can understand the depth of
your
: thought.
:
: (They receive money from the government!)

Yes, Including my two sisters! (Teachers)
I do not need to explain. If your able to read and comprehend the
language I am quite clear on all points.

: > No one said anything about "revennooers" until you interjected
: > that bastardized word into the discussion. The language of an
: > literate? What the hell is it? I'm not into dialects!
: >
: Sorry, it was a joke, referring to a certain form of
anti-government
: activity (moonshine). I'll try to keep my remarks simple for you
in
: the future.

Now you think excessive government is funny? You are a strange
thing indeed!

: > First the Democrats support a policy that results in a
reduction
: > in income for the average citizen, then tax the same citizen
to
: > pay welfare to buy off criminals? You make no sense!
:
: You don't have any evidence to back that up.

Several Economists made the statement, I only said it because I
see it happening. Look it up!

: > Keeping your gun serviceable is also in your best interests,
but
: > you neglect self defense in favor of paying a toll to the
unruly!
:
: No, as I pointed out, (in a civil way, I might add,) I believe
that
: when you own a gun, serviceable or not, it is NOT in anyone's
best
: interests.

You have never been civil! Also, I can't believe you think in
such a twisted and strange way. To suggest that anyone should
trust that government will take care of them and that there is no
obligation to protect oneself and property is really a head in the
sand situation.

: > So? Yes, unlike yourself, I have read it, and the papers and
: > discussion about it by the founders. James Madison said it
: > included "Swords, muskets, and cannon, and all the terrible
: > weapons of war!" If your mentally fit and a citizen you ARE a
: > member of that militia!
:
: Isn't that nice! And so appropriate for 2004!

Well we agree on that!

: > When asked what the Militia was, George Mason, one of the
Framers
: > of the U.S. Constitution, said, "Who are the Militia? They
consist
: > now of the whole people, except for a few public officers."
Yet we
: > also see statutes like 10 USC 311, which defines it as "all
able-
: > bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided
in
: > section 13 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or have
: > made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the
United
: > States." Some state statutes define it as "able-bodied males"
of
: > different age ranges, such as 16 through 59.
: > For a complete history of the Militia See:
: >
: > http://www.city-net.com/~davekle/what_mil.htm
: >
: > : The essential point is that NRA members own guns as toys.
: > There is nothing essential about it, your language is at the
third
: > grade level.
: >
: > : They are playthings, to be fondled and savored and collected
: > : and taken out and shown off on weekends on the firing range.
: >
: > Is that a sentence? What were you trying to say?
:
: You really didn't understand what I was trying to say? I guess
I'll
: have to word things more carefully for you in the future.

Lets see, Poor use of the connective "AND."

: > Your delusions are not germane to any rational discussion.
:
: Cover your ears, close your eyes, and hum all you want. Guns
don't
: make people safer. They are dangerous in the best of situations,
allow
: impulse to translate into deadly action much more readily than
other
: weapons, and are prone to falling into the hands of criminals.

I can only observe that you have an irrational belief and you
could never influence me to think you have a clue about what your
saying.

: > As they are now! In the Frontier days there was less crime
and
: > far fewer murders (per/100,000 population) than now, it is
much
: > more dangerous now!
:
: That might have something to do with the fact that there are far
more
: handguns now, per person, than there was back then.

Not as compared to the population as a whole. The percentage of
the population who are gun owners is only slightly higher than
when the west was "won".

: My point was that guns were tools on the frontier and in rural
: America. Guns were used for hunting and for protection. Now,
they are
: used for recreation by middle aged NRA members. Police are
forced to
: use them for protection due to their proliferation in society.
Owning
: a gun does not make you or your family safer. It makes you more
likely
: to be killed or injured by a gun.

So you really don't have a point, only a belief?
I do not accept that as a rational statement, just an observation
of deviance!

: And best regards to you too!

I see no point in continuing this, you have demonstrated an
unwillingness to learn, or to even seriously consider an
alternative to your sick beliefs.

Goodbye, stay out of high crime neighborhoods.
Robert C Monsen
2004-07-07 22:38:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
Random <snips> of dead portions of the thread. Not all labeled!
I see no point in continuing this, you have demonstrated an
unwillingness to learn, or to even seriously consider an
alternative to your sick beliefs.
Goodbye, stay out of high crime neighborhoods.
Thank God. Well, I'll keep my sick (sic) beliefs about gun ownership.
The truth is shown by comparison of violent crime in the US with other
countries. I'm sure you have some NRA propaganda to use to indicate
that that isn't true, but you've promised to stop, so...

Regards
Bob Monsen
Bob Holtzman
2004-07-07 11:11:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert C Monsen
Post by Roger Gt
Your remark is the silliest thing I have ever heard. If you
really believe it, get help soon. No one allows a rifle to rust.
Ah, my stepfather let his guns rust. I'm sure lots of people do. They
just aren't very useful anymore.
No pride of ownership.
Post by Robert C Monsen
Post by Roger Gt
I didn't want to restart a gun control vs. following the
Constitution discussion. Your the one who wants to violate the
Constitution!
It always comes down to this. Have you ever actually read the second
ammendment, as opposed to what gets printed in those NRA handouts? If
so, which part of "a well-regulated militia" are you and your gun
going to be part of? Or, is the NRA now forming a militia? The
founders were talking about the national guard, for crissakes, state
militias. They don't make you bring your own gun anymore, and wouldn't
let you use it even if you brought it.
Try reading the founding fathers' definition of the militia. It included
*all* able bodied men.
Post by Robert C Monsen
The essential point is that NRA members own guns as toys. They are
playthings, to be fondled and savored and collected and taken out and
shown off on weekends on the firing range. There are hunters, but
thats a game too, not required for survival. Guns are also supposedly
for protection, but that's a fantasy, not borne out by statistics or
common sense.
Tell that to the shop keeper who has thwarted a robbery by using a gun
or the woman (of my acquaintance) who avoided being raped by sticking a
gun in the scumbag's face or any number of other documented incidents.
--
Bob Holtzman
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
......check the price of the beer!"
To reply by email remove "hosed."
James Beck
2004-07-06 21:23:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is more
likely to kill his own kids than a burgler. Damned kids are just
around the house a lot more than burglers.
John
And where did you get that "fact"????
What a crock of crap.
If you don't like guns, fine, don't own one, but don't spout the same
old crap.

"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there."
~ George Orwell as member of Home Guard, author of "1984"
Jim Thompson
2004-07-06 21:37:49 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:23:42 GMT, James Beck
Post by James Beck
Post by John Larkin
That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is more
likely to kill his own kids than a burgler. Damned kids are just
around the house a lot more than burglers.
John
And where did you get that "fact"????
What a crock of crap.
If you don't like guns, fine, don't own one, but don't spout the same
old crap.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there."
~ George Orwell as member of Home Guard, author of "1984"
Hear! Hear!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
John Larkin
2004-07-06 22:26:51 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:23:42 GMT, James Beck
Post by James Beck
Post by John Larkin
That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is more
likely to kill his own kids than a burgler. Damned kids are just
around the house a lot more than burglers.
John
And where did you get that "fact"????
What a crock of crap.
If you don't like guns, fine, don't own one, but don't spout the same
old crap.
Actually, I like guns. I had a beautiful Ruger stainless
police-special revolver, but a burgler got it. I came in just as he
was leaving out the back door, figured out what was going on, and did
*not* chase him; it was full of '38 wad cutters, and I bet they hurt.
If I had entered a minute sooner, he probably would have shot me with
my gun, or maybe with his own. But it's just a fact that the US has a
murder rate that's 10x or so that of other civilized countries, and
guns are mostly responsible; it's such an easy, almost antiseptic, way
to kill. Television shows and movies mostly glorify guns and the joy
of killing with them; it's hard to find a newspaper movie section that
doesn't have a couple of guns prominently displayed in the ads. The
very fact that gun lovers admire their weapons so much tells the
story.

I hear shots in the night often, as most people who live in big cities
do. I guess we'll just have to stay used to it.
Post by James Beck
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there."
Rifles are good, because you can't conceal them very well. What would
old George think of 12-year olds running around with automatic
pistols, killing the kids from down the block?

John
Chris Carlen
2004-07-07 01:33:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:23:42 GMT, James Beck
Post by James Beck
Post by John Larkin
That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is more
likely to kill his own kids than a burgler. Damned kids are just
around the house a lot more than burglers.
John
And where did you get that "fact"????
What a crock of crap.
If you don't like guns, fine, don't own one, but don't spout the same
old crap.
Actually, I like guns. I had a beautiful Ruger stainless
police-special revolver, but a burgler got it. I came in just as he
was leaving out the back door, figured out what was going on, and did
*not* chase him; it was full of '38 wad cutters, and I bet they hurt.
If I had entered a minute sooner, he probably would have shot me with
my gun, or maybe with his own. But it's just a fact that the US has a
murder rate that's 10x or so that of other civilized countries, and
guns are mostly responsible; it's such an easy, almost antiseptic, way
to kill. Television shows and movies mostly glorify guns and the joy
of killing with them; it's hard to find a newspaper movie section that
doesn't have a couple of guns prominently displayed in the ads. The
very fact that gun lovers admire their weapons so much tells the
story.
I hear shots in the night often, as most people who live in big cities
do. I guess we'll just have to stay used to it.
Are you *serious*? What part of the town do you live in? I'm used to
east coast segregated towns with "nice" sections, "bad" sections and
"ghettos" (the parts that are so bad they'll turn your car over and set
it on fire if you stop at a light in the daytime).

I lived in a "bad" part of town (Bethlehem, PA) once for about a year.
When I left PA in 1999, the adjacent Allentown was experiencing multiple
instances of gunfire per night, and about 7 actual shootings per month.

For a relatively small town, and considering that it wasn't 1/10 as bad
only a decade prior, I considered it a case of real "going down the tubes."

But the bad parts of Bethlehem remained fairly constant over the years,
then began to spread. There were also housing projects in which the
danger level was high in broad daylight.

I just don't see anything of similar seriousness here in the Bay Area,
though I have tried to steer clear of the worst parts of Oakland except
for the daytime.

But in SF I find it hard to believe that a fellow of your stature would
be experiencing such "sounds."


Good day!
--
_____________________
Christopher R. Carlen
***@earthlink.net
Suse 8.1 Linux 2.4.19
John Larkin
2004-07-07 02:38:09 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:33:16 -0700, Chris Carlen
Post by Chris Carlen
Post by Jim Thompson
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:23:42 GMT, James Beck
Post by James Beck
Post by John Larkin
That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is more
likely to kill his own kids than a burgler. Damned kids are just
around the house a lot more than burglers.
John
And where did you get that "fact"????
What a crock of crap.
If you don't like guns, fine, don't own one, but don't spout the same
old crap.
Actually, I like guns. I had a beautiful Ruger stainless
police-special revolver, but a burgler got it. I came in just as he
was leaving out the back door, figured out what was going on, and did
*not* chase him; it was full of '38 wad cutters, and I bet they hurt.
If I had entered a minute sooner, he probably would have shot me with
my gun, or maybe with his own. But it's just a fact that the US has a
murder rate that's 10x or so that of other civilized countries, and
guns are mostly responsible; it's such an easy, almost antiseptic, way
to kill. Television shows and movies mostly glorify guns and the joy
of killing with them; it's hard to find a newspaper movie section that
doesn't have a couple of guns prominently displayed in the ads. The
very fact that gun lovers admire their weapons so much tells the
story.
I hear shots in the night often, as most people who live in big cities
do. I guess we'll just have to stay used to it.
Are you *serious*? What part of the town do you live in? I'm used to
east coast segregated towns with "nice" sections, "bad" sections and
"ghettos" (the parts that are so bad they'll turn your car over and set
it on fire if you stop at a light in the daytime).
I live in Glen Park, in the southern part of San Francisco, just
across the Alemany Gap from Ocean Avenue and Visitacian Valley, where
the gangs hang out. Bayview/Hunters Point is worse, but fortunately
out of earshot. San Francisco is trying to catch up with Oakland in
the murder sweepstakes, up to about 40 so far this year.

When I lived deeper in the Mission, across from the Holly Park
projects, there were two street killings on my block in the six years
I was there, both over drugs. One was an old guy who told a drug
dealer that the residents didn't want him around, so the dealer got
annoyed and blew him away.
Post by Chris Carlen
But in SF I find it hard to believe that a fellow of your stature would
be experiencing such "sounds."
Stature? I'm 5'7", and my hearing is still pretty good. Gunshots carry
well line-of-sight, a couple of miles across the Gap.

John
Bill Garber
2004-07-07 04:11:15 UTC
Permalink
"John Larkin" <***@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com>
wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:33:16 -0700, Chris Carlen
: <***@BOGUS_FIELD.earthlink.net> wrote:
:
: >John Larkin wrote:
: >> On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:23:42 GMT, James Beck
: >> <***@reallykillersystems.com> wrote:
: >>
: >>
: >>>In article <***@4ax.com>,
: >>>***@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com says...
: >>>
: >>>>That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner
is more
: >>>>likely to kill his own kids than a burgler. Damned kids are
just
: >>>>around the house a lot more than burglers.
: >>>>
: >>>>John
: >>>>
: >>>>
: >>>
: >>>And where did you get that "fact"????
: >>>What a crock of crap.
: >>>If you don't like guns, fine, don't own one, but don't spout
the same
: >>>old crap.
: >>>
: >>
: >>
: >> Actually, I like guns. I had a beautiful Ruger stainless
: >> police-special revolver, but a burgler got it. I came in
just as he
: >> was leaving out the back door, figured out what was going
on, and did
: >> *not* chase him; it was full of '38 wad cutters, and I bet
they hurt.
: >> If I had entered a minute sooner, he probably would have
shot me with
: >> my gun, or maybe with his own. But it's just a fact that the
US has a
: >> murder rate that's 10x or so that of other civilized
countries, and
: >> guns are mostly responsible; it's such an easy, almost
antiseptic, way
: >> to kill. Television shows and movies mostly glorify guns and
the joy
: >> of killing with them; it's hard to find a newspaper movie
section that
: >> doesn't have a couple of guns prominently displayed in the
ads. The
: >> very fact that gun lovers admire their weapons so much tells
the
: >> story.
: >>
: >> I hear shots in the night often, as most people who live in
big cities
: >> do. I guess we'll just have to stay used to it.
: >
: >Are you *serious*? What part of the town do you live in? I'm
used to
: >east coast segregated towns with "nice" sections, "bad"
sections and
: >"ghettos" (the parts that are so bad they'll turn your car
over and set
: >it on fire if you stop at a light in the daytime).
: >
:
: I live in Glen Park, in the southern part of San Francisco,
just
: across the Alemany Gap from Ocean Avenue and Visitacian Valley,
where
: the gangs hang out. Bayview/Hunters Point is worse, but
fortunately
: out of earshot. San Francisco is trying to catch up with
Oakland in
: the murder sweepstakes, up to about 40 so far this year.
:
: When I lived deeper in the Mission, across from the Holly Park
: projects, there were two street killings on my block in the six
years
: I was there, both over drugs. One was an old guy who told a
drug
: dealer that the residents didn't want him around, so the dealer
got
: annoyed and blew him away.

The problem here that you are overlooking is,
if they take MY guns away, that drug dealer
will still have his. He doesn't get them the
same way I get mine. He gets them from the
underground. They get them from foreign guys
who smuggle them around where they can't be
traced.

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - willy46pa @ comcast DOT net
Change DOT to a dot to contact me



---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/19/04
Steve Sousa
2004-07-07 18:43:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Garber
The problem here that you are overlooking is,
if they take MY guns away, that drug dealer
will still have his. He doesn't get them the
My understanding is:
In a life or dead situation, if you shot that dealer and live, you die
anyway. Am i wrong?

Greetings

Steve Sousa
Roger Gt
2004-07-07 19:46:20 UTC
Permalink
"Steve Sousa" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:newscache$znvh0i$lyg$***@newsfront4.netvisao.pt...
:
: "Bill Garber" <***@comcast DOT net> wrote in message
: news:***@comcast.com...
:
: > The problem here that you are overlooking is,
: > if they take MY guns away, that drug dealer
: > will still have his. He doesn't get them the
:
: My understanding is:
: In a life or dead situation, if you shot that dealer and live,
you die
: anyway. Am i wrong?
: Greetings Steve Sousa

Yes you are! It altogether depends upon the situation and whether
you were in fear of your life (Police are always in fear of their
lives and they shoot anyone or anything that moves without
consequence!)

And if I am on the jury, you walk!
Bill Garber
2004-07-07 21:25:12 UTC
Permalink
"Roger Gt" <***@here.net> wrote in message news:gqYGc.7639$***@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
:
: "Steve Sousa" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
: news:newscache$znvh0i$lyg$***@newsfront4.netvisao.pt...
: :
: : "Bill Garber" <***@comcast DOT net> wrote in message
: : news:***@comcast.com...
: :
: : > The problem here that you are overlooking is,
: : > if they take MY guns away, that drug dealer
: : > will still have his. He doesn't get them the
: :
: : My understanding is:
: : In a life or dead situation, if you shot that dealer and
live,
: you die
: : anyway. Am i wrong?
: : Greetings Steve Sousa
:
: Yes you are! It altogether depends upon the situation and
whether
: you were in fear of your life (Police are always in fear of
their
: lives and they shoot anyone or anything that moves without
: consequence!)
:
: And if I am on the jury, you walk!

Thanks Roger. I couldn't have said it any better. :o)

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - willy46pa @ comcast DOT net
Change DOT to a dot to contact me



---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/18/04
Bob Holtzman
2004-07-07 11:18:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
I live in Glen Park, in the southern part of San Francisco, just
across the Alemany Gap from Ocean Avenue and Visitacian Valley, where
the gangs hang out. Bayview/Hunters Point is worse, but fortunately
out of earshot. San Francisco is trying to catch up with Oakland in
the murder sweepstakes, up to about 40 so far this year.
How can this be when SF's gun control laws are among the strongest in
the country?
--
Bob Holtzman
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
......check the price of the beer!"
To reply by email remove "hosed."
xray
2004-07-07 04:52:57 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:33:16 -0700, Chris Carlen
Post by Chris Carlen
I just don't see anything of similar seriousness here in the Bay Area,
though I have tried to steer clear of the worst parts of Oakland except
for the daytime.
Chris,

This has nothing to do with the rest of this scary thread but...

You live in the Bay Area? For some reason, with your earlier posts I got
the impression you lived in Los Alamos or somewhere in that general
area. Did I get it wrong or did you move?

Not that it matters, but my curious mind wants to know.

-Rex
Chuck Harris
2004-07-07 13:24:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
Post by James Beck
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there."
Rifles are good, because you can't conceal them very well. What would
old George think of 12-year olds running around with automatic
pistols, killing the kids from down the block?
John
He would think it was past time for their parents to realign
the kids attitudes.

-Chuck

OBTW, the dozen or so states that have concealed carry permits have
all seen a marked reduction in violent crimes of all types. They cases
of permit holders misusing their guns has been so small as to be
insignificant.
John Woodgate
2004-07-07 14:32:17 UTC
Permalink
I read in sci.electronics.design that Chuck Harris <cf-NO-SPAM-
Post by Chuck Harris
Post by John Larkin
Rifles are good, because you can't conceal them very well. What would
old George think of 12-year olds running around with automatic
pistols, killing the kids from down the block?
John
He would think it was past time for their parents to realign
the kids attitudes.
How terribly non-PC. Parents have no right to restrict their children's
self-expression. They should be left to limit each other's self-
expression by summary execution. (;-)
Post by Chuck Harris
-Chuck
OBTW, the dozen or so states that have concealed carry permits have
all seen a marked reduction in violent crimes of all types. They cases
of permit holders misusing their guns has been so small as to be
insignificant.
No doubt. This is the up-side of gun ownership. One of the down-sides is
that if a permit-owner does go mad, he/she often kills many people, so
it makes big news.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
Roger Gt
2004-07-07 17:42:34 UTC
Permalink
"John Woodgate" <***@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message news:***@jmwa.demon.co.uk...
: I read in sci.electronics.design that Chuck Harris <cf-NO-SPAM-
: ***@erols.com> wrote (in
<40ebf984$0$3077$***@news.rcn.com>)
: about 'For All the Michael Moore Fans', on Wed, 7 Jul 2004:
:
: >OBTW, the dozen or so states that have concealed carry permits
have
: >all seen a marked reduction in violent crimes of all types.
They cases
: >of permit holders misusing their guns has been so small as to
be
: >insignificant.
:
: No doubt. This is the up-side of gun ownership. One of the
down-sides is
: that if a permit-owner does go mad, he/she often kills many
people, so
: it makes big news.

Not a problem, democrats and other gun control freaks are unable
to pass the simple competency test.
John Larkin
2004-07-07 15:26:51 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 09:24:19 -0400, Chuck Harris
Post by Chuck Harris
Post by John Larkin
Post by James Beck
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there."
Rifles are good, because you can't conceal them very well. What would
old George think of 12-year olds running around with automatic
pistols, killing the kids from down the block?
John
He would think it was past time for their parents to realign
the kids attitudes.
-Chuck
OBTW, the dozen or so states that have concealed carry permits have
all seen a marked reduction in violent crimes of all types. They cases
of permit holders misusing their guns has been so small as to be
insignificant.
The class that suffers most from access to guns is adolescent males.
In my teens, I knew five guys who died: two in car crashes, one idiot
who cleaned car parts in gasoline near a water heater, and two
suicides by gun. My best friend in junior high, David Cruma, got into
an argument with his step-father, a state legislator, and picked up a
revolver and shot him. He then called his girlfriend, said goodbye,
and swallowed a bullet. At least he had the good sense to take a
lawyer out with him. I'm sure neither of the suicides would have
happened sucessfully without a gun being handy.

But hell, we have too many teenage males around already. Clumsy,
surly, and useless, most of them.

John
Roger Gt
2004-07-07 17:47:36 UTC
Permalink
"John Larkin" <***@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com>
wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 09:24:19 -0400, Chuck Harris
: >
: >OBTW, the dozen or so states that have concealed carry permits
have
: >all seen a marked reduction in violent crimes of all types.
They cases
: >of permit holders misusing their guns has been so small as to
be
: >insignificant.
:
: The class that suffers most from access to guns is adolescent
males.
: In my teens, I knew five guys who died: two in car crashes, one
idiot
: who cleaned car parts in gasoline near a water heater, and two
: suicides by gun. My best friend in junior high, David Cruma, got
into
: an argument with his step-father, a state legislator, and picked
up a
: revolver and shot him. He then called his girlfriend, said
goodbye,
: and swallowed a bullet. At least he had the good sense to take a
: lawyer out with him. I'm sure neither of the suicides would have
: happened successfully without a gun being handy.

It WOULD have been messy to use a kitchen knife like they do in
England, or an Ax like Lizzy Borden used. When the decision is
made, the way is found! At least he didn't go crash head first
into a passing family on a Sunday drive!


: But hell, we have too many teenage males around already. Clumsy,
: surly, and useless, most of them.

Until they enlist in the military, after which even democrats cry
over the loss of even one!

BTW: with your sick attitude, how DID you survive?
John Larkin
2004-07-07 18:02:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
BTW: with your sick attitude, how DID you survive?
By thinking. They died by not thinking.

John
Chuck Harris
2004-07-07 17:55:49 UTC
Permalink
John Larkin wrote:

I'm sure neither of the suicides would have
Post by John Larkin
happened sucessfully without a gun being handy.
I'm sure that you are wrong. Japan has the highest suicide rate in
the world... and no legal gun ownership. How *DO* they do it?

-Chuck Harris
John Larkin
2004-07-07 18:09:02 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 13:55:49 -0400, Chuck Harris
Post by John Larkin
I'm sure neither of the suicides would have
Post by John Larkin
happened sucessfully without a gun being handy.
I'm sure that you are wrong. Japan has the highest suicide rate in
the world... and no legal gun ownership. How *DO* they do it?
-Chuck Harris
Well, David probably wouldn't have been able to kill the senator with
his bare hands (the old fart was BIG) so the whole thing likely would
have ended up in shouting or scuffling.

There's no way we're going to change the gun situation in this
country, but if you have teenagers around the house, especially males,
keep the guns locked up.

John
Chuck Harris
2004-07-07 18:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
Post by Chuck Harris
I'm sure that you are wrong. Japan has the highest suicide rate in
the world... and no legal gun ownership. How *DO* they do it?
-Chuck Harris
Well, David probably wouldn't have been able to kill the senator with
his bare hands (the old fart was BIG) so the whole thing likely would
have ended up in shouting or scuffling.
A piddling swing with a baseball bat to his head would do the trick
just fine. We should outlaw baseball bats.
Post by John Larkin
There's no way we're going to change the gun situation in this
country, but if you have teenagers around the house, especially males,
keep the guns locked up.
Or, you could teach your kids what guns are all about, and make them
competent. You could teach your kids that people don't come back from
being dead like they do in the movies. You could teach your kids moral
values. Nah! Too much like work! Go back to your TV.

-Chuck
John Larkin
2004-07-07 19:23:06 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:24:35 -0400, Chuck Harris
Post by Chuck Harris
Post by John Larkin
Post by Chuck Harris
I'm sure that you are wrong. Japan has the highest suicide rate in
the world... and no legal gun ownership. How *DO* they do it?
-Chuck Harris
Well, David probably wouldn't have been able to kill the senator with
his bare hands (the old fart was BIG) so the whole thing likely would
have ended up in shouting or scuffling.
A piddling swing with a baseball bat to his head would do the trick
just fine. We should outlaw baseball bats.
I can only cite my personal experience (since nobody will believe
statistics when they contradict his prejudices):

Two guys I knew, dead from self-inflicted gunshots

One murder by gunshot

Two killings of people I didn't know, on my block, when I lived across
from the Projects.

Zero murders/suicides by other means. Note zero murders/suicides in
households that had baseball bats, but no guns.

Zero examples of defense of home/hearth against intruders

Zero examples of defense of the Constitution against the ravages of
facist governments

One recent neighborhood domestic quarrel with gun, involving about 20
cops who locked down the neighborhood for about 2 hours. One arrest,
nobody got hurt.
Post by Chuck Harris
Post by John Larkin
There's no way we're going to change the gun situation in this
country, but if you have teenagers around the house, especially males,
keep the guns locked up.
Or, you could teach your kids what guns are all about, and make them
competent. You could teach your kids that people don't come back from
being dead like they do in the movies. You could teach your kids moral
values. Nah! Too much like work! Go back to your TV.
Kids sometimes get depressed; they outgrow it, if they live.

Of course your personal experiences may be different from mine. The
death rate by gun is only about 140 PPM per year in this country
(Japan is about 4) so it's unlikely that you or yours will ever be
involved in a gun death. For middle-class adults, cars are far more
dangerous.

John
Jim Thompson
2004-07-07 19:28:00 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:23:06 -0700, John Larkin
<***@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

[snip]
Post by John Larkin
I can only cite my personal experience (since nobody will believe
Two guys I knew, dead from self-inflicted gunshots
One murder by gunshot
Two killings of people I didn't know, on my block, when I lived across
from the Projects.
Zero murders/suicides by other means. Note zero murders/suicides in
households that had baseball bats, but no guns.
Zero examples of defense of home/hearth against intruders
Zero examples of defense of the Constitution against the ravages of
facist governments
One recent neighborhood domestic quarrel with gun, involving about 20
cops who locked down the neighborhood for about 2 hours. One arrest,
nobody got hurt.
Post by Chuck Harris
Post by John Larkin
There's no way we're going to change the gun situation in this
country, but if you have teenagers around the house, especially males,
keep the guns locked up.
Or, you could teach your kids what guns are all about, and make them
competent. You could teach your kids that people don't come back from
being dead like they do in the movies. You could teach your kids moral
values. Nah! Too much like work! Go back to your TV.
Kids sometimes get depressed; they outgrow it, if they live.
Of course your personal experiences may be different from mine. The
death rate by gun is only about 140 PPM per year in this country
(Japan is about 4) so it's unlikely that you or yours will ever be
involved in a gun death. For middle-class adults, cars are far more
dangerous.
John
At my old location I had a neighbor about a block away, took a swing
at his wife, but she ducked and his arm went thru a glass window...
bled to death before the next-door neighbor (a doctor) could do
anything.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Roger Gt
2004-07-07 20:26:30 UTC
Permalink
"Jim Thompson" <***@example.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
:
: At my old location I had a neighbor about a block away, took a
swing
: at his wife, but she ducked and his arm went thru a glass
window...
: bled to death before the next-door neighbor (a doctor) could do
: anything.
: ...Jim Thompson


I had forgotten until I read this, I had a neighbor who put his
hand in an edger. I heard him pleading for the next door neighbor
to take him to the emergency room. He refused! I ran down and
got his hand wrapped in a towel and drove him to the local
emergency room. He recovered, the damage was mostly reparable.
Learned that the next door neighbor wouldn't drive him for help
because his two sons had been arrested for selling drugs to an
undercover agent at the high school. They got long terms in
prison, but the man didn't deserve to bleed to death!

Roger Gt.
John Larkin
2004-07-07 21:09:50 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:28:00 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
At my old location I had a neighbor about a block away, took a swing
at his wife, but she ducked and his arm went thru a glass window...
bled to death before the next-door neighbor (a doctor) could do
anything.
...Jim Thompson
Doesn't sound like she was in any great rush to apply a tourniquet.
Serves him right, beating up on women. Or windows. Whatever.

John
Jim Thompson
2004-07-07 21:09:55 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:09:50 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:28:00 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
At my old location I had a neighbor about a block away, took a swing
at his wife, but she ducked and his arm went thru a glass window...
bled to death before the next-door neighbor (a doctor) could do
anything.
...Jim Thompson
Doesn't sound like she was in any great rush to apply a tourniquet.
Serves him right, beating up on women. Or windows. Whatever.
John
Talking to the doctor at that incident, underarm between elbow and
shoulder is about the worst place to get a slash wound :-(

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Roger Gt
2004-07-07 20:01:25 UTC
Permalink
"John Larkin" <***@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com>
wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:24:35 -0400, Chuck Harris
: <cf-NO-SPAM-***@erols.com> wrote:
:
: >John Larkin wrote:
: >>>I'm sure that you are wrong. Japan has the highest suicide
rate in
: >>>the world... and no legal gun ownership. How *DO* they do
it?
: >>>-Chuck Harris
: >> Well, David probably wouldn't have been able to kill the
senator with
: >> his bare hands (the old fart was BIG) so the whole thing
likely would
: >> have ended up in shouting or scuffling.
: >A piddling swing with a baseball bat to his head would do the
trick
: >just fine. We should outlaw baseball bats.
:
: I can only cite my personal experience (since nobody will
believe
: statistics when they contradict his prejudices):
: Two guys I knew, dead from self-inflicted gunshots
:
: One murder by gunshot
:
: Two killings of people I didn't know, on my block, when I lived
across
: from the Projects.

So you lived in a bad area and so everyone should be punished and
loose their rights because it upset you? Gat real, see a shrink!

: Zero murders/suicides by other means. Note zero murders/suicides
in
: households that had baseball bats, but no guns.

How would you know? Many are not reported in the media!

: Zero examples of defense of home/hearth against intruders

Again, you have the media filtering what you hear and they tend to
favor gun control so they only report when it sounds like
something that will put the spin on the story they want you to
swallow!

: Zero examples of defense of the Constitution against the ravages
of
: facist governments (fascist?)

ONE! We don't have one YET! Unlikely as long as those who want
it know the possibly for their future!

: One recent neighborhood domestic quarrel with gun, involving
about 20
: cops who locked down the neighborhood for about 2 hours. One
arrest,
: nobody got hurt.

Over reactions are common.

: >> There's no way we're going to change the gun situation in
this
: >> country, but if you have teenagers around the house,
especially males,
: >> keep the guns locked up.
: >
: >Or, you could teach your kids what guns are all about, and make
them
: >competent. You could teach your kids that people don't come
back from
: >being dead like they do in the movies. You could teach your
kids moral
: >values. Nah! Too much like work! Go back to your TV.
:
: Kids sometimes get depressed; they outgrow it, if they live.

Everyone gets depressed, face it the future under a democrat in
the white house is pretty grim.

: Of course your personal experiences may be different from mine.
The
: death rate by gun is only about 140 PPM per year in this country
: (Japan is about 4) so it's unlikely that you or yours will ever
be
: involved in a gun death. For middle-class adults, cars are far
more
: dangerous.
: John

So with no guns they manage to have a 4PPM rate? How cleaver! How
unrelated!

Where I live there has been only one murder in thirty-three years,
with a butcher knife! Few incidences of violence, but you
understand that 60% or the home owners had guns and know how to
use them! Including the fourteen police officers that live in the
near neighborhoods.
John Larkin
2004-07-07 21:22:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
: On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:24:35 -0400, Chuck Harris
: >>>I'm sure that you are wrong. Japan has the highest suicide
rate in
: >>>the world... and no legal gun ownership. How *DO* they do
it?
: >>>-Chuck Harris
: >> Well, David probably wouldn't have been able to kill the
senator with
: >> his bare hands (the old fart was BIG) so the whole thing
likely would
: >> have ended up in shouting or scuffling.
: >A piddling swing with a baseball bat to his head would do the
trick
: >just fine. We should outlaw baseball bats.
: I can only cite my personal experience (since nobody will
believe
: Two guys I knew, dead from self-inflicted gunshots
: One murder by gunshot
: Two killings of people I didn't know, on my block, when I lived
across
: from the Projects.
So you lived in a bad area and so everyone should be punished and
loose their rights because it upset you? Gat real, see a shrink!
: Zero murders/suicides by other means. Note zero murders/suicides
in
: households that had baseball bats, but no guns.
How would you know? Many are not reported in the media!
: Zero examples of defense of home/hearth against intruders
Again, you have the media filtering what you hear and they tend to
favor gun control so they only report when it sounds like
something that will put the spin on the story they want you to
swallow!
As I noted, this is my personal experience, not stats or news. Guns
have, so far, not done me any good. The few critters I've shot didn't
even taste as good as prime farm products, and you don't have to shoot
abalone.

Given that the situation is not going to change, physically (too many
guns out there now) or politically (no Constitutional amendment
changes any time soon) the only question is really: shall I have a gun
or guns in my own house? Will guns make my family safer or put them in
more danger? There's certainly no pat answer, but I'd certainly not
want to have a gun around in a household with kids, especially in a
suburb where violent crime is rare anyhow. Even if you get burgled,
you're probably better off letting them have the stuff than
instigating a gun battle in a house full of innocents. But that's not
a macho position to take, I realize. As an engineer, I try to make
decisions based on the best facts I can find, and not by how something
feels to my 2-million-year-old hormones.

John
John Miller
2004-07-07 18:30:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
Well, David probably wouldn't have been able to kill the senator with
his bare hands (the old fart was BIG) so the whole thing likely would
have ended up in shouting or scuffling.
You seem to be conveniently overlooking edged weapons and clubs.
--
John Miller
Email address: domain, n4vu.com; username, jsm

Give me a Plumber's friend the size of the Pittsburgh dome, and a place to
stand, and I will drain the world.
Roger Gt
2004-07-07 18:36:08 UTC
Permalink
"John Larkin" <***@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com>
wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 13:55:49 -0400, Chuck Harris
: <cf-NO-SPAM-***@erols.com> wrote:
:
: >John Larkin wrote:
: > I'm sure neither of the suicides would have
: >> happened sucessfully without a gun being handy.

I notice you have a problem with the word "successfully" No
spelling checker?

: >I'm sure that you are wrong. Japan has the highest suicide
rate in
: >the world... and no legal gun ownership. How *DO* they do it?
: >-Chuck Harris
:
: Well, David probably wouldn't have been able to kill the senator
with
: his bare hands (the old fart was BIG) so the whole thing likely
would
: have ended up in shouting or scuffling.

I was taught in army hand to hand combat training that a persons
size is a disadvantage, and it is very easy to kill a person (or
dog) with your bare hands. I found it much easier to control my
temper after that revelation, knowing how to kill so easily may be
a problem if I was not in full control. It is too easy to kill
with any incidental weapon, like scissors, broomstick, hat pin or
ice pick, electric cord, or bare hands! A gun just makes it
easier to avoid being hurt yourself. Levels the playing field!

: There's no way we're going to change the gun situation in this
: country, but if you have teenagers around the house, especially
males,
: keep the guns locked up.
: John

Or teach them the proper way to handle guns like this country has
for 16 generations? I did, no problems, I am teaching my
grandchildren, also no problems! A friend used to teach Boyscouts
gun safety, none of them (Several hundreds) were ever involved in
an incident with a gun. To impart knowledge is a powerful weapon
against ignorance!

I belong to a historic re-enactment group, who fight in armor with
swords. No one has ever had more than a scratch due to the armor
shifting under impact during an attack with a two pound
"star-fire" fighting sword. Yet that same weapon could easily
behead a person with one swing. Knowing the proper manner to
handle a weapon makes it safe!
John Larkin
2004-07-07 21:24:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
: On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 13:55:49 -0400, Chuck Harris
: > I'm sure neither of the suicides would have
: >> happened sucessfully without a gun being handy.
I notice you have a problem with the word "successfully" No
spelling checker?
Not for ng postings. You most likely understood what I meant.

John
Roger Gt
2004-07-07 17:42:34 UTC
Permalink
"Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-***@erols.com> wrote in message news:40ebf984$0$3077$***@news.rcn.com...
: -Chuck
:
: OBTW, the dozen or so states that have concealed carry permits
have
: all seen a marked reduction in violent crimes of all types.
They cases
: of permit holders misusing their guns has been so small as to be
: insignificant.

The number is 37 now! And growing.
Chuck Harris
2004-07-07 13:18:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is more
likely to kill his own kids than a burgler. Damned kids are just
around the house a lot more than burglers.
John
That silly statistic is utter BS!

The actual report made by the American Medical Association,
was that if you have a gun in your home, you are 43 times more
likely to kill a friend, family, or someone you know than if you
don't have a gun in your home.

Consider that in the group of people they consider "friend, family,
or someone you know" are the following:

Your estranged spouse who beats you,
The mugger whose picture you saw in the paper,
The gang kids that hang on the corner,
The neighbor that threatens everybody about everything.
That strange guy that lives in 3B and gives everyone the willies,
The bully that prey's on your kids,
Your drug addicted brother that keeps breaking into your house.
The stalker from that date that didn't work out...
Your father who beats you and mom when he gets drunk,
Your father who rapes you regularly...

and also,

Accidents, suicides and murders.

and, of course, they also included people killed by methods other than guns.

What they didn't do, is say how many of these "killings" were justifiable,
and how many were not.

It is time to stop dragging that hideous piece of propaganda
out as fact.

-Chuck Harris
John Larkin
2004-07-07 21:26:06 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 09:18:29 -0400, Chuck Harris
Post by Chuck Harris
Post by John Larkin
That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is more
likely to kill his own kids than a burgler. Damned kids are just
around the house a lot more than burglers.
John
That silly statistic is utter BS!
Well, maybe *you* have more burglers around your house than you have
kids.

John
Rich Grise
2004-07-07 00:11:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
Post by Greg Pierce
As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.
It's about people being dead, instead of merely yelled at or bruised.
John
Larkin, you idiot. Gun control is about whether or not to let Da Gubmint
turn the US into the Fourth Reich.
--
Rich
Bernd Felsche
2004-07-07 01:47:11 UTC
Permalink
[snip way-off-topic discussion]

How about not responding to spam that's way off topic?
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature
/ \ and postings | to help me spread!
Roger Gt
2004-07-07 02:57:11 UTC
Permalink
"Bernd Felsche" <***@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:***@innovative.iinet.net.au...
: [snip way-off-topic discussion]
:
: How about not responding to spam that's way off topic?
: --
: /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western
Australia
: \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
: X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature
: / \ and postings | to help me spread!


Hello:

There hasn't been any spanme here. Just OT discussion!
If your not interested, you read the subject first, and use the
delete key!
Chuck Harris
2004-07-07 12:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
Post by Greg Pierce
As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.
It's about people being dead, instead of merely yelled at or bruised.
John
The largest mass murder that has ever occurred in the US was committed with
a jumbo jet. The second largest was committed with a bottle full of gasoline,
then, there was that truck full of fertilizer...

Knives, baseball bats, clubs, bricks, and fists have killed more people in
the US than guns ever will. Guns, however, have done an excellent job of
empowering the weak and allowing them to fend off violent attacks of all kinds...

And in warding off these attacks, most of the time, the gun is never even fired...
And when it is fired, it is usually with non fatal result.


-Chuck Harris
Jim Thompson
2004-07-06 19:18:16 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:51:59 -0400, Chuck Harris
<cf-NO-SPAM-***@erols.com> wrote:

[snip]
Post by Chuck Harris
I started out as an avid Democrat. All Marylanders must
[snip]
Post by Chuck Harris
-Chuck
Maryland where? I'll be in Hagerstown, probably the week of October
10, for a family reunion.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Jim DeClercq
2004-07-07 01:37:33 UTC
Permalink
While you are there, please give a single finger salute to Mack Trucks,
for the absolutely strangest contract job I have ever worked, embedded
systems programming for a department headed by a homosexual in heat. It's
on Pennsylvania Avenue.

Jim

Jim Thompson <***@example.com> writes:

: On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:51:59 -0400, Chuck Harris
: <cf-NO-SPAM-***@erols.com> wrote:

: [snip]
: >I started out as an avid Democrat. All Marylanders must
: [snip]
: >
: >-Chuck

: Maryland where? I'll be in Hagerstown, probably the week of October
: 10, for a family reunion.

: ...Jim Thompson
: --
: | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
: | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
: | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
: | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
: | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
: | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
:
: I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
--
--
/"\ Jim DeClercq--***@panix.com--Sylvania, Ohio, USA
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! |
X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature|
/ \ and postings | to help me spread! |
.
Chuck Harris
2004-07-07 12:38:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
Maryland where? I'll be in Hagerstown, probably the week of October
10, for a family reunion.
...Jim Thompson
Damascus, just outside of Frederick.

-Chuck Harris
Scott Stephens
2004-07-05 20:26:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
Moore is just another step in the mindless cartoonization of American
politics,
I like that observation,
Post by John Larkin
Americans are not, by nature, mean
people, and I expect an eventual reaction against all this meanness.
The smoldering embers are being stoked. The Democrats and Republicans
are like a crack-whore mom and a drunken dad, threatening to burn the
house down if they can't spend the children s milk-money on their
personal drug of choice.

(the metaphor, for those that don't get it, is Democrats bribe voters
with entitlements, Republicans bribe corporations, both parties import
immigrants to use as fresh toilet-paper.)
Post by John Larkin
MM is especially annoying. He's getting rich off the American public
by telling us how stupid we are, thus proving himself correct.
A humorous book review by some other mean people:
"Michael Moore Is A Big Fat Stupid White Man"

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/6/23/165945.shtml

I half suspect Moore is a CIA shill. The more people like Moore and
Kennedy bash bush, the more Repugs rally to defense.

Stupid suckers.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************
Mark Fergerson
2004-07-06 15:56:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Stephens
The Democrats and Republicans
are like a crack-whore mom and a drunken dad, threatening to burn the
house down if they can't spend the children s milk-money on their
personal drug of choice.
That is simply beautiful. May I quote you?
Post by Scott Stephens
(the metaphor, for those that don't get it, is Democrats bribe voters
with entitlements, Republicans bribe corporations, both parties import
immigrants to use as fresh toilet-paper.)
No wonder us kids (those that don't become similarly
addicted) want to be Libertarians.

Mark L. Fergerson
Scott Stephens
2004-07-07 00:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Fergerson
The Democrats and Republicans are like a crack-whore mom and a
drunken dad, threatening to burn the house down if they can't spend
the children s milk-money on their personal drug of choice.
That is simply beautiful. May I quote you?
Uh, I think there is a better quote than that around somewhere, I don't
think I invented that metaphor. Can't remember where I got it.
--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************
Max Hauser
2004-07-05 20:49:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
. . .
Moore is just another step in the mindless cartoonization of
American politics, following in the footsteps of Ivans, Limbaugh,
Conason, and Coulter. Fortunately, we still have have a few
thoughtful journalists, and lots of people with common sense who
inhabit the "flyover territory" between the coasts. Americans are
not, by nature, mean people, and I expect an eventual reaction
against all this meanness.
MM is especially annoying. He's getting rich off the American
public by telling us how stupid we are, thus proving himself
correct.
John
MM is losing some intelligent supporters. Any of you near silicon valley
may have seen the cover story of the San Jose Mercury News Entertainment
Guide when it reviewed the 9/11 film (25 June 2004), "Michael Moore Misses
His Mark," by critic Glenn Lovell, a "huge fan" of Moore's _Bowling for
Columbine_ and evidently no friend of Bush. Interior title was "Subpar
propaganda." Lovell wrote "... so smug in its position, so cavalier in its
documentation, that I left feeling more hoodwinked than enlightened. ... In
his rush to portray Bush as both con artist and boob, he leaves no
conspiracy theory unaired, no cheap shot untaken."

Moore does seem to be gaining some fans though, it's evident on newsgroups.
Not everyone examines the thing critically as Lovell did, some make clear
that their criterion for judging the documentary merit of the movie is that
they like it. (This sort of thing used to be called demagoguery.)
Greg Pierce
2004-07-06 03:31:37 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:21:11 -0700, the highly esteemed Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
Letter-to-Editor in today's EV Tribune (Phoenix)....
Moore film falsely depicts flight of Saudis
Michael Moore's movie, "Fahrenheit 9/ll" informs us I that, immediately
after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, while U.S. airspace was
closed to all commercial traffic, Bush arranged for a special flight to
secretly spirit Bush's friends, Bin Laden family members, safely out of
the country.
The reality is the bin Laden's didn't leave the U.S. until U.S. airspace
was re-opened and not at the arrangement of Bush but at the urging of
"terror czar" Richard Clark's of 9/11 commission fame, who informed them
that the U.S. couldn't ensure their safety.
You remember him. He was the guy who told reporters in an August 2002
interview that Bush initiated a project, in the first week of February,
2001, to "increase CIA resources, for example the covert action, fivefold
(over Clinton's efforts), to go after al-Qaida" and then went on to make
verbatim contradictions of such statements before the 9/11 commission
(with his new Bush-bash book just hitting the markets).
Moore is laughing at us foolish Americans all the way to the bank.
DENIS EGAN
SCOTTSDALE
...Jim Thompson
You know Moore is full of shit when a Lefty like Christopher Hitchens
debunks his film. Check this out: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/
--
Greg
Mark Fergerson
2004-07-06 15:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Pierce
You know Moore is full of shit when a Lefty like Christopher Hitchens
debunks his film. Check this out: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/
Bookmarked for use against the stupid. Thank you.

Mark L. Fergerson
Blair P. Houghton
2004-07-07 02:19:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Fergerson
Post by Greg Pierce
You know Moore is full of shit when a Lefty like Christopher Hitchens
debunks his film. Check this out: http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/
Bookmarked for use against the stupid. Thank you.
Hitchens isn't a Liberal. He's a Socialist. Only
ignorami equate the two.

--Blair
"Liberals founded America."
Roger Gt
2004-07-07 02:59:14 UTC
Permalink
"Blair P. Houghton" <***@p.h> wrote in message news:e5JGc.163595$***@news.easynews.com...
: Mark Fergerson <***@biz.ness> wrote:
: >Greg Pierce wrote:
: >> You know Moore is full of shit when a Lefty like Christopher
Hitchens
: >> debunks his film. Check this out:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/
: > Bookmarked for use against the stupid. Thank you.
:
: Hitchens isn't a Liberal. He's a Socialist. Only
: ignorami equate the two.
:
: "Liberals founded America."

Yes it is true, the founders were liberal, back when it meant
something entirely different!
slecky
2004-07-06 03:47:59 UTC
Permalink
Whatever Moore's mis-perceptions or fallacies, they pale in comparison and
are inconsequential compared to the Bush administrations' lies and
incompetence.
Bush is an incompetent fool, and this administration did not protect us.
Let's not forget: 9/11 happened on George's watch.
Bush has had fewer press conferences than any president in modern history.
Becuase he simply cannot be held accountable. He had to have Cheney hold his
hand in front of the 9/11 comission.

I have not seen Fahrenheit 9/11 yet, but all the critiques I have read so
far have done little to show me blatant misrepresentations.
To me, it is not about Michael Moore. It is about this country's leaders
being held accountable. That's called a democracy, remember what that is?
Post by Jim Thompson
The reality is the bin Laden's didn't leave the U.S. until U.S.
airspace was re-opened
That is not true.
Post by Jim Thompson
and not at the arrangement of Bush but at the
urging of "terror czar" Richard Clark's of 9/11 commission fame, who
informed them that the U.S. couldn't ensure their safety.
Then why didn't we keep them at Andrews AFB for interrogation? If my brother
drove a plane into the Sears tower, do you think I could leave the country
without being questioned because I haven't talked to him in 10 years? Are
you fuc--- kidding me??
Post by Jim Thompson
You remember him. He was the guy who told reporters in an August 2002
interview that Bush initiated a project, in the first week of
February, 2001, to "increase CIA resources, for example the covert
action, fivefold (over Clinton's efforts),
How could it be over Cinton's efforts if Clinton was not President?
Post by Jim Thompson
to go after al-Qaida" and then went on to make verbatim contradictions
Show me a verbatim contradiction. I want to see it.
Post by Jim Thompson
of such statements before the 9/11 commission (with his new Bush-bash book
just hitting the
Post by Jim Thompson
markets).
Well, since it is a Bush-bash book, then I guess nothing in it has any
merit, right?

It always amazes me how engineer types can be so analytical when it comes to
circuits and physics, but cannot parse false rhetoric or just plain
bullshit.
Post by Jim Thompson
Letter-to-Editor in today's EV Tribune (Phoenix)....
Moore film falsely depicts flight of Saudis
Michael Moore's movie, "Fahrenheit 9/ll" informs us I that,
immediately after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, while U.S.
airspace was closed to all commercial traffic, Bush arranged for a
special flight to secretly spirit Bush's friends, Bin Laden family
members, safely out of the country.
Moore is laughing at us foolish Americans all the way to the bank.
DENIS EGAN
SCOTTSDALE
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Roger Gt
2004-07-06 04:07:51 UTC
Permalink
"slecky" <***@_muck_web.com> wrote in message news:***@corp.supernews.com...
: Whatever Moore's mis-perceptions or fallacies, they pale in
comparison and
: are inconsequential compared to the Bush administrations' lies
and
: incompetence.
: Bush is an incompetent fool, and this administration did not
protect us.
: Let's not forget: 9/11 happened on George's watch.
: Bush has had fewer press conferences than any president in
modern history.
: Becuase he simply cannot be held accountable. He had to have
Cheney hold his
: hand in front of the 9/11 comission.
:
: I have not seen Fahrenheit 9/11 yet, but all the critiques I
have read so
: far have done little to show me blatant misrepresentations.
: To me, it is not about Michael Moore. It is about this country's
leaders
: being held accountable. That's called a democracy, remember what
that is?
:
:
: > The reality is the bin Laden's didn't leave the U.S. until
U.S.
: > airspace was re-opened
:
: That is not true.
:
: >and not at the arrangement of Bush but at the
: > urging of "terror czar" Richard Clark's of 9/11 commission
fame, who
: > informed them that the U.S. couldn't ensure their safety.
:
: Then why didn't we keep them at Andrews AFB for interrogation?
If my brother
: drove a plane into the Sears tower, do you think I could leave
the country
: without being questioned because I haven't talked to him in 10
years? Are
: you fuc--- kidding me??
:
: > You remember him. He was the guy who told reporters in an
August 2002
: > interview that Bush initiated a project, in the first week of
: > February, 2001, to "increase CIA resources, for example the
covert
: > action, fivefold (over Clinton's efforts),
:
: How could it be over Cinton's efforts if Clinton was not
President?
:
: > to go after al-Qaida" and then went on to make verbatim
contradictions
:
: Show me a verbatim contradiction. I want to see it.
:
: >of such statements before the 9/11 commission (with his new
Bush-bash book
: just hitting the
: > markets).
:
: Well, since it is a Bush-bash book, then I guess nothing in it
has any
: merit, right?
:
: It always amazes me how engineer types can be so analytical when
it comes to
: circuits and physics, but cannot parse false rhetoric or just
plain
: bullshit.
:

Here is a prime example of how to be completely neutral and
carefully analyze each and every statement of a "documentary" from
an award winning producer who is totally neutral in his politics!
No bias there! So we should all pay attention to his rambling
diatribe? Well -- Everyone should be heard! Makes things easier
to understand to have such an expert and intellectual review.

To bad he spoiled it by being a TOP POSTER!
Penury
2004-07-06 05:07:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
To bad he spoiled it by being a TOP POSTER!
Ever consider editing out the stuff on top you aren't replying to ?

-=Bill Eckle=-
***@wmeckle.com
Vanity Web pages at:
http://www.wmeckle.com
Richard Henry
2004-07-06 18:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
: Whatever Moore's mis-perceptions or fallacies, they pale in
comparison and
: are inconsequential compared to the Bush administrations' lies
and
: incompetence.
: Bush is an incompetent fool, and this administration did not
protect us.
: Let's not forget: 9/11 happened on George's watch.
: Bush has had fewer press conferences than any president in
modern history.
: Becuase he simply cannot be held accountable. He had to have
Cheney hold his
: hand in front of the 9/11 comission.
: I have not seen Fahrenheit 9/11 yet, but all the critiques I
have read so
: far have done little to show me blatant misrepresentations.
: To me, it is not about Michael Moore. It is about this country's
leaders
: being held accountable. That's called a democracy, remember what
that is?
: > The reality is the bin Laden's didn't leave the U.S. until
U.S.
: > airspace was re-opened
: That is not true.
: >and not at the arrangement of Bush but at the
: > urging of "terror czar" Richard Clark's of 9/11 commission
fame, who
: > informed them that the U.S. couldn't ensure their safety.
: Then why didn't we keep them at Andrews AFB for interrogation?
If my brother
: drove a plane into the Sears tower, do you think I could leave
the country
: without being questioned because I haven't talked to him in 10
years? Are
: you fuc--- kidding me??
: > You remember him. He was the guy who told reporters in an
August 2002
: > interview that Bush initiated a project, in the first week of
: > February, 2001, to "increase CIA resources, for example the
covert
: > action, fivefold (over Clinton's efforts),
: How could it be over Cinton's efforts if Clinton was not
President?
: > to go after al-Qaida" and then went on to make verbatim
contradictions
: Show me a verbatim contradiction. I want to see it.
: >of such statements before the 9/11 commission (with his new
Bush-bash book
: just hitting the
: > markets).
: Well, since it is a Bush-bash book, then I guess nothing in it
has any
: merit, right?
: It always amazes me how engineer types can be so analytical when
it comes to
: circuits and physics, but cannot parse false rhetoric or just
plain
: bullshit.
Here is a prime example of how to be completely neutral and
carefully analyze each and every statement of a "documentary" from
an award winning producer who is totally neutral in his politics!
No bias there! So we should all pay attention to his rambling
diatribe? Well -- Everyone should be heard! Makes things easier
to understand to have such an expert and intellectual review.
To bad he spoiled it by being a TOP POSTER!
He started out on top with a general comment, then inserted his comments all
through the message, at the appropriate places.
Bob Holtzman
2004-07-07 05:42:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Henry
Post by Roger Gt
Here is a prime example of how to be completely neutral and
carefully analyze each and every statement of a "documentary" from
an award winning producer who is totally neutral in his politics!
No bias there! So we should all pay attention to his rambling
diatribe? Well -- Everyone should be heard! Makes things easier
to understand to have such an expert and intellectual review.
To bad he spoiled it by being a TOP POSTER!
He started out on top with a general comment, then inserted his comments all
through the message, at the appropriate places.
I must be going blind. I didn't see where he inserted anything after the top
post.
--
Bob Holtzman
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
......check the price of the beer!"
To reply by email remove "hosed."
AZGuy
2004-07-06 05:53:11 UTC
Permalink
I never fail to be amazed at how upset some people get at the alleged
lies of Moore yet accept without a peep far more harmful lies put out
by Bush and his stooges. Welcome to 1984.


On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:21:11 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
Letter-to-Editor in today's EV Tribune (Phoenix)....
Moore film falsely depicts flight of Saudis
Michael Moore's movie, "Fahrenheit 9/ll" informs us I that,
immediately after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, while U.S.
airspace was closed to all commercial traffic, Bush arranged for a
special flight to secretly spirit Bush's friends, Bin Laden family
members, safely out of the country.
The reality is the bin Laden's didn't leave the U.S. until U.S.
airspace was re-opened and not at the arrangement of Bush but at the
urging of "terror czar" Richard Clark's of 9/11 commission fame, who
informed them that the U.S. couldn't ensure their safety.
You remember him. He was the guy who told reporters in an August 2002
interview that Bush initiated a project, in the first week of
February, 2001, to "increase CIA resources, for example the covert
action, fivefold (over Clinton's efforts), to go after al-Qaida" and
then went on to make verbatim contradictions of such statements before
the 9/11 commission (with his new Bush-bash book just hitting the
markets).
Moore is laughing at us foolish Americans all the way to the bank.
DENIS EGAN
SCOTTSDALE
...Jim Thompson
--
Elbridge Gerry, of Massachusetts:

"What, sir, is the use of militia? It is to prevent the
establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. . .
Whenever Government means to invade the rights and liberties of
the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order
to raise a standing army upon its ruins." -- Debate, U.S. House
of Representatives, August 17, 1789
xray
2004-07-06 11:17:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by AZGuy
I never fail to be amazed at how upset some people get at the alleged
lies of Moore yet accept without a peep far more harmful lies put out
by Bush and his stooges. Welcome to 1984.
I agree, but let's look at this.

Moore is biased. Everyone seems acknowledge that. I do too. I don't even
think his movie is really that effective, but it IS an attempt to get
people thinking. Maybe a failed attempt. I doubt if very many people
leave the theater with significantly changed perspectives.

With all the media in our lives our whole world seems to be determined
by "spin" and its success rate. So Michael Moore CAN be accued of spin
in this documentary. What, about similar issues like the lack of WMDs,
is escaping his attackers. Any skewing of information in this movie does
not come close to the world-wide propaganda blitz created by this
president and his advisers that started a war with justification that
has obviously been proven false.

A whole damn war! With death and destruction, human upheaval, grieving
families on both sides, and massive economic cost and burden on society.
And I am talking about Iraq, not Afghanistan, where we never really
tried hard to get the real terrorists.

In our recent rewrite, this war was to depose a brutal tyrant. America
wouldn't be there if that was the original story. The original story was
based on revenge and fear. Lets go kill some of those terrorist bastards
before they get us.

I walked the ground in Vietnam with a rifle in my hands. Most of the old
farts in this group will remember that period well. I came out of it
proud for my service and knowing that eventually we may have to go to
war again, but hoping we would only do that when there was a clear enemy
and a reason beyond reproach.

When the American public was being sold the story that got us into Iraq,
I kept asking myself why there was no presentation of concrete
justification. (Where's the beef? as that old TV ad said.) One night I
met a guy from Australia and he reassured me that since his government
was buying into the program, there must be something there that we, as
common folk, weren't being allowed to know that justified the idea. I
think that reassured me too much. I was looking for a reason to believe.
As it started I wanted to believe, and pretty much did believe, we were
doing the right thing.

So all this happened, and I support our troups who, like me (then), are
doing the bidding of their government whether it really makes sense or
not. So far no one has stooped to attacking the soldiers much, and I
hope that doesn't happen. A few, like the prison guards, might be in
deep trouble though, and I am sure this government could easily write
them off with the other casualties.

As for this newsgroup, why are so many engineers down on Michael Moore?
You guys are usually so logical in everything you do. The biggest and
most obvious lie (and how can you argue the WMD thing) was the one that
got this war started. Why the disjoint in attributing where the lies
are? Be reasonable. Attack the BIG liar, not the one who made this
little movie.

-Rex

P.S., I voted for Bush thinking he might be good for the economy. We all
make mistakes. I admit this one.
Rheilly Phoull
2004-07-06 13:09:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by xray
Post by AZGuy
I never fail to be amazed at how upset some people get at the alleged
lies of Moore yet accept without a peep far more harmful lies put out
by Bush and his stooges. Welcome to 1984.
I agree, but let's look at this.
Moore is biased. Everyone seems acknowledge that. I do too. I don't even
think his movie is really that effective, but it IS an attempt to get
people thinking. Maybe a failed attempt. I doubt if very many people
leave the theater with significantly changed perspectives.
With all the media in our lives our whole world seems to be determined
by "spin" and its success rate. So Michael Moore CAN be accued of spin
in this documentary. What, about similar issues like the lack of WMDs,
is escaping his attackers. Any skewing of information in this movie does
not come close to the world-wide propaganda blitz created by this
president and his advisers that started a war with justification that
has obviously been proven false.
A whole damn war! With death and destruction, human upheaval, grieving
families on both sides, and massive economic cost and burden on society.
And I am talking about Iraq, not Afghanistan, where we never really
tried hard to get the real terrorists.
In our recent rewrite, this war was to depose a brutal tyrant. America
wouldn't be there if that was the original story. The original story was
based on revenge and fear. Lets go kill some of those terrorist bastards
before they get us.
I walked the ground in Vietnam with a rifle in my hands. Most of the old
farts in this group will remember that period well. I came out of it
proud for my service and knowing that eventually we may have to go to
war again, but hoping we would only do that when there was a clear enemy
and a reason beyond reproach.
When the American public was being sold the story that got us into Iraq,
I kept asking myself why there was no presentation of concrete
justification. (Where's the beef? as that old TV ad said.) One night I
met a guy from Australia and he reassured me that since his government
was buying into the program, there must be something there that we, as
common folk, weren't being allowed to know that justified the idea. I
think that reassured me too much. I was looking for a reason to believe.
As it started I wanted to believe, and pretty much did believe, we were
doing the right thing.
So all this happened, and I support our troups who, like me (then), are
doing the bidding of their government whether it really makes sense or
not. So far no one has stooped to attacking the soldiers much, and I
hope that doesn't happen. A few, like the prison guards, might be in
deep trouble though, and I am sure this government could easily write
them off with the other casualties.
As for this newsgroup, why are so many engineers down on Michael Moore?
You guys are usually so logical in everything you do. The biggest and
most obvious lie (and how can you argue the WMD thing) was the one that
got this war started. Why the disjoint in attributing where the lies
are? Be reasonable. Attack the BIG liar, not the one who made this
little movie.
-Rex
P.S., I voted for Bush thinking he might be good for the economy. We all
make mistakes. I admit this one.
What I would like to know is why do you think the average reader of this
group (electronics.design)gives a FLYING FUCK about your political opinions
??

--
Regards ........... Rheilly Phoull
xray
2004-07-06 18:28:18 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:09:59 +0800, "Rheilly Phoull"
Post by Rheilly Phoull
What I would like to know is why do you think the average reader of this
group (electronics.design)gives a FLYING FUCK about your political opinions
??
--
Regards ........... Rheilly Phoull
I don't think most readers care. But if they don't care, then why are
they reading this OT thread in the first place. I didn't start it.

-Rex
Roger Gt
2004-07-06 19:21:46 UTC
Permalink
"xray" <***@hotmail.invalid> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:53:11 -0700, AZGuy
<***@cox.net> wrote:
:
: >I never fail to be amazed at how upset some people get at the
alleged
: >lies of Moore yet accept without a peep far more harmful lies
put out
: >by Bush and his stooges. Welcome to 1984.
: >
:
: I agree, but let's look at this.
:
: Moore is biased. Everyone seems acknowledge that. I do too. I
don't even
: think his movie is really that effective, but it IS an attempt
to get
: people thinking. Maybe a failed attempt. I doubt if very many
people
: leave the theater with significantly changed perspectives.
:

Moore = Mendacity

: With all the media in our lives our whole world seems to be
determined
: by "spin" and its success rate. So Michael Moore CAN be accued
of spin
: in this documentary. What, about similar issues like the lack of
WMDs,
: is escaping his attackers. Any skewing of information in this
movie does
: not come close to the world-wide propaganda blitz created by
this
: president and his advisers that started a war with justification
that
: has obviously been proven false.

I keep hearing that it was WMD. My understanding was it was due
to a failure to comply with the terms of surrender! The UN has
no teeth, and was on the take with bribes from the sale of OIL to
help the people of Iraq and other corruption. We took action due
to the non-compliance with the Surrender and the potential threat
to world peace from a tyrant.

: A whole damn war! With death and destruction, human upheaval,
grieving
: families on both sides, and massive economic cost and burden on
society.
: And I am talking about Iraq, not Afghanistan, where we never
really
: tried hard to get the real terrorists.

: In our recent rewrite, this war was to depose a brutal tyrant.
America
: wouldn't be there if that was the original story. The original
story was
: based on revenge and fear. Lets go kill some of those terrorist
bastards
: before they get us.

This was the only "Story" I ever heard. All the rest was only
discussion.

: I walked the ground in Vietnam with a rifle in my hands. Most of
the old
: farts in this group will remember that period well. I came out
of it
: proud for my service and knowing that eventually we may have to
go to
: war again, but hoping we would only do that when there was a
clear enemy
: and a reason beyond reproach.

As I served in the 1st Division. So I also hoped more wars could
be avoided, but not at any cost!

<snipped personal doubts>

: As for this newsgroup, why are so many engineers down on Michael
Moore?
: You guys are usually so logical in everything you do. The
biggest and
: most obvious lie (and how can you argue the WMD thing) was the
one that
: got this war started. Why the disjoint in attributing where the
lies
: are? Be reasonable. Attack the BIG liar, not the one who made
this
: little movie. -Rex

The BIG LIAR made the Movie!
It is questioned here because Engineers typically work with "Cold
Hard Facts" and want to see the data. More is a consummate liar,
and has proven his bias is not a coincidence. He is an
opportunist but he only attacks (like any terrorist) only one
side. He was OK with Clinton dismantling the intelligence
apparatus and crippling our military by inappropriate reductions
and use as "Peace Keepers" in places they should not be under the
command of the UN. (I didn't serve in the US ARMY to take orders
from the UN!)

No, M. Moore, is not a "Nice" man. Nor someone to be believed!

Roger Gt
nan
2004-07-06 22:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
He was OK with Clinton dismantling the intelligence
apparatus and crippling our military by inappropriate reductions
And you are OK with Bush sending young soldiers to die in an unnecesary war,
poorly planned, and ill-equipped?
Post by Roger Gt
and use as "Peace Keepers" in places they should not be under the
command of the UN.
(I didn't serve in the US ARMY to take orders
from the UN!)
Well, that's good. How about Halliburton? Will you take orders from
Halliburton?
Post by Roger Gt
No, M. Moore, is not a "Nice" man. Nor someone to be believed!
You don't have to believe him. Check out the facts for yourself. If you have
the time. Because you won't get them on the evening news.
Roger Gt
2004-07-07 03:15:59 UTC
Permalink
"nan" wrote
: "Roger Gt" wrote
:
: > He was OK with Clinton dismantling the intelligence
: > apparatus and crippling our military by inappropriate
reductions
:
: And you are OK with Bush sending young soldiers to die in an
unnecesary war,
: poorly planned, and ill-equipped?

Your choice of words indicate that you are not playing with a full
deck!

I am Okay with the over throw of a tyrant. And freeing the people
of Iraq from a dictatorship.

BTW: I design weapon systems, I know that the current military is
one hell of a lot better equipped than I was when I was in the
Army. We didn't have body armor, laser guided weapons, night
vision goggles, nor many of the "Neat" stuff that is standard
issue now!

By Family has a tradition of spending time in the service, My son
was in Desert Storm, and we have always made the best of what we
had to work with.

: > and use as "Peace Keepers" in places they should not be under
the
: > command of the UN.
: > (I didn't serve in the US ARMY to take orders
: > from the UN!)
: Well, that's good. How about Halliburton? Will you take orders
from
: Halliburton?

I don't work for Halliburton, and they do not give orders to the
military!

: > No, M. Moore, is not a "Nice" man. Nor someone to be
believed!
: You don't have to believe him. Check out the facts for yourself.
If you
: have the time. Because you won't get them on the evening news.
:


I have checked, and will continue to do so. But it will likely
not result in my trusting M. More...


G-Night all. Off to Disneyland. Better class of people there, ya
Know.
xray
2004-07-07 05:02:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
G-Night all. Off to Disneyland. Better class of people there, ya
Know.
Exactly! You are already living in fantasy land.
Roger Gt
2004-07-07 08:34:08 UTC
Permalink
"xray" <***@hotmail.invalid> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 03:15:59 GMT, "Roger Gt" <***@here.net>
wrote:
:
: >G-Night all. Off to Disneyland. Better class of people there,
ya
: >Know.

: Exactly! You are already living in fantasy land.

Gee, thank you. That would be nice!
Bob Holtzman
2004-07-07 11:28:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Gt
BTW: I design weapon systems,
I've don some military ordinace design myself.
Post by Roger Gt
I know that the current military is
one hell of a lot better equipped than I was when I was in the
Army. We didn't have body armor, laser guided weapons, night
vision goggles, nor many of the "Neat" stuff that is standard
issue now!
However I understand that some of the more mundane stuff like food,
fuel and ammo didn't make it to the front lines. This from some
newspaper articles.
--
Bob Holtzman
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
......check the price of the beer!"
To reply by email remove "hosed."
Bob Holtzman
2004-07-07 06:10:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by xray
As for this newsgroup, why are so many engineers down on Michael Moore?
Mostly because many of us have developed built in bullshit meters. It
comes from listening to too many management presentations.
--
Bob Holtzman
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
......check the price of the beer!"
To reply by email remove "hosed."
Blair P. Houghton
2004-07-07 02:19:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
Letter-to-Editor in today's EV Tribune (Phoenix)....
Moore film falsely depicts flight of Saudis
Michael Moore's movie, "Fahrenheit 9/ll" informs us I that,
immediately after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, while U.S.
airspace was closed to all commercial traffic, Bush arranged for a
special flight to secretly spirit Bush's friends, Bin Laden family
members, safely out of the country.
The reality is the bin Laden's didn't leave the U.S. until U.S.
airspace was re-opened and not at the arrangement of Bush but at the
urging of "terror czar" Richard Clark's of 9/11 commission fame, who
informed them that the U.S. couldn't ensure their safety.
I've heard that the film doesn't say it was Bush himself, but
his administration.

I've also heard that some people think the movie claims
that the flight occurred when airspace was closed, but
they think wrong because it clearly shows the flight taking
off after it was reopened.

I'll get around to actually seeing the movie when someone
makes a charge against it that sticks.

--Blair
"Mike Moore will sue you if you
lie about his movie."
Jim Thompson
2004-07-07 02:24:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blair P. Houghton
Post by Jim Thompson
Letter-to-Editor in today's EV Tribune (Phoenix)....
Moore film falsely depicts flight of Saudis
Michael Moore's movie, "Fahrenheit 9/ll" informs us I that,
immediately after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, while U.S.
airspace was closed to all commercial traffic, Bush arranged for a
special flight to secretly spirit Bush's friends, Bin Laden family
members, safely out of the country.
The reality is the bin Laden's didn't leave the U.S. until U.S.
airspace was re-opened and not at the arrangement of Bush but at the
urging of "terror czar" Richard Clark's of 9/11 commission fame, who
informed them that the U.S. couldn't ensure their safety.
I've heard that the film doesn't say it was Bush himself, but
his administration.
I've also heard that some people think the movie claims
that the flight occurred when airspace was closed, but
they think wrong because it clearly shows the flight taking
off after it was reopened.
But that's not what Mikey is saying in the sound-track. (I saw the
movie.)
Post by Blair P. Houghton
I'll get around to actually seeing the movie when someone
makes a charge against it that sticks.
--Blair
"Mike Moore will sue you if you
lie about his movie."
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

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