Pool fencing recommendations?

[Paul Wylie]

My wrought-iron pool fence is about 20 years old and is quickly becoming a
complete wreck.

My wife and have gotten estimates for new fencing, and it ain't cheap.
We're looking at about 150 linear feet of fencing, and it'll cost us close
to $5,000 installed (including the cost of removing and hauling away the
old fence).

The big question is: PVC or aluminum? I was all set to specify aluminum,
but it's roughly 20% more expensive in terms of materials (the labor, etc.
are about the same).

The PVC includes a lifetime warranty, but I'm skeptical about that. Every
piece of plastic I've ever seen exposed to AZ sunlight has broken down
pretty quickly, and I have a suspicion that even if this stuff is as
durable as they claim, by the time I'd need to file a warranty claim,
the manufacurer will be long gone.

Aluminum generally includes a 10 year warranty, although Home Depot's
install-it-yourself aluminum fencing has a 20 year warranty.

So, does anybody have any experience with getting a new pool fence and
have any recommendations? Would you recommend PVC or aluminum, or the
other way around? Do you have any installers to avoid, or one you'd swear
by?

I'm looking at paying half up front, and waiting 3 weeks to get the
fencing manufactured, so I'm leery of jumping into something without a
good understanding of the issues and risks.

That said, I need to do something soon because my existing fence is in
such poor shape.

Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.

--Paul
** Note "removemunged" in email address and remove to reply. **

[Moe Trin]

Post by Paul Wylie
My wrought-iron pool fence is about 20 years old and is quickly becoming a
complete wreck.

Curious - how is it failing? Are you/did you do any preventive maintenance
on it? Reason I'm asking is that my fence is about 13 years old, and has
been repainted (Rust-oleum) once that I'm aware of, and gets a coat of car
wax at least once every five years. Main problem I'm fighting is the
buildup of salts from the sprinkler system, and that the original paint
job chalked up on me.

Post by Paul Wylie
My wife and have gotten estimates for new fencing, and it ain't cheap.

No kidding.

Post by Paul Wylie
The big question is: PVC or aluminum? I was all set to specify aluminum,
but it's roughly 20% more expensive in terms of materials (the labor, etc.
are about the same).

Do they specify the type of aluminum? Aluminum itself is almost never used
pure, and the type of alloy is a significant factor in it's corrosion
resistance. Alloys of magnesium, silicon, or magnesium silicide exhibit the
greatest resistance to corrosive attack, while alloys containing copper
have relatively poor corrosion resistance. You identify the alloy by a
four digit number, like 1100, 2024, 4032, 5053, 6061, or 7075. The
preferred alloys would be in the 4xxx, 5xxx, or 6xxx families, while 2xxx
alloys should be avoided.

Also, how do they plan to "protect" the aluminum. The aluminum itself is
protected by a _very_thin_ layer of oxidized aluminum. While fairly hard,
this film may be damaged by physical contact - stones thrown by a lawn
mower or weed wacker for example. There are chemical treatments that can
help (or hurt), but cladding (with a pure aluminum) or electrolytic
oxide finishing is better. Painting also can help, but the metal should
be primed with zinc chromate before painting. "Dings" to the paint during
the life of the fence should be repaired relatively promptly.

For more details than you can possibly use, find a copy of MIL-HDBK-694
("Aluminum and Aluminum Alloys" - about 100 pages) and MIL-HDBK-132
(Protective Finishes).

Post by Paul Wylie
The PVC includes a lifetime warranty, but I'm skeptical about that.

You and me both. "lifetime" of what? You, your house, or the fence.

Post by Paul Wylie
Every piece of plastic I've ever seen exposed to AZ sunlight has broken
down pretty quickly, and I have a suspicion that even if this stuff is
as durable as they claim, by the time I'd need to file a warranty claim,
the manufacurer will be long gone.

That would be my concern also. Most unprotected PVC that I've had
experience with has become brittle, and shatters after a few years.

Post by Paul Wylie
Aluminum generally includes a 10 year warranty, although Home Depot's
install-it-yourself aluminum fencing has a 20 year warranty.

Yes, but read the fine print for exclusions, limitations, etc. Also,
while I'm sure you aren't planning on selling the house soon, see if
the warranty is transferable.

Post by Paul Wylie
So, does anybody have any experience with getting a new pool fence and
have any recommendations? Would you recommend PVC or aluminum, or the
other way around?

No experience with either, but the 'gut' feeling is PVC is not the way
to go. A suggestion might be to hit the search engines like google.
Another resource might be to call in to the "Rosie on the house" show
on KTAR (Saturdays at 8 am) and ask there. I see he has a website
www.rosieonthehouse.com/ (thanks google). Another source to check
might be a real estate agent.

Old guy

[Paul Wylie]

Post by Moe Trin
Curious - how is it failing? Are you/did you do any preventive
maintenance on it?

The house was nearly 20 years old when we moved in about a year and a half
ago, and the fence was already beyond help (although we didn't know it at
the time). Once I saw visible rust on the fence, I bought Rust-O-Leum and
a wire brush, along with some silicon carbide sandpaper and steel wool. I
was all set to remove all signs of rust and repaint when I realized that
some sections of the fence were more paint than metal. The fence had been
neglected so badly for so long that by the time I tried to save it, it was
too far gone.

[...]

Post by Moe Trin
Do they specify the type of aluminum? Aluminum itself is almost never
used pure, and the type of alloy is a significant factor in it's
corrosion resistance.

[...]

Post by Moe Trin
Also, how do they plan to "protect" the aluminum. The aluminum itself
is protected by a _very_thin_ layer of oxidized aluminum. While fairly
hard, this film may be damaged by physical contact - stones thrown by a
lawn mower or weed wacker for example.

[...]

Thanks for the incredibly detailed explanations. I'll definitely ask when
I talk to the fence company.

--Paul
** Note "removemunged" in email address and remove to reply. **

[Moe Trin]

Post by Paul Wylie
The house was nearly 20 years old when we moved in about a year and a half
ago, and the fence was already beyond help (although we didn't know it at
the time). Once I saw visible rust on the fence, I bought Rust-O-Leum and
a wire brush, along with some silicon carbide sandpaper and steel wool. I
was all set to remove all signs of rust and repaint when I realized that
some sections of the fence were more paint than metal. The fence had been
neglected so badly for so long that by the time I tried to save it, it was
too far gone.

Ahhh, OK. Iron has that as a disadvantage. When we bought the house (at
age 7), the "home inspector" noted the condition of the fence - in our case
the paint was chalking. I've only got 80 feet of fence, and it took two
weekends to clean that off (Dupont #7 Polishing Compound), and another two
weeks to paint it.

Post by Paul Wylie
Thanks for the incredibly detailed explanations. I'll definitely ask when
I talk to the fence company.

Glad to help!!!

Old guy

[b***@MIX.COM]

Post by Moe Trin
You identify the alloy by a
four digit number, like 1100, 2024, 4032, 5053, 6061, or 7075. The
preferred alloys would be in the 4xxx, 5xxx, or 6xxx families, while 2xxx
alloys should be avoided.

I can say that 6061 half-hard 0.25" aluminum plates have held up well as cable
entrance panels on television broadcasting trucks for 20-30 years. This is a
fairly harsh environment, probably worse than a pool fence in Phoenix.

Billy Y..

[Paul Wylie]

Post by b***@MIX.COM
I can say that 6061 half-hard 0.25" aluminum plates have held up well
as cable entrance panels on television broadcasting trucks for 20-30
years. This is a fairly harsh environment, probably worse than a pool
fence in Phoenix.

Well, the manufacturer of one kind of aluminum fence we're considering
(Alumifence) uses 6061-T6 or 6063-T6 for its fencing (don't know which
we'd be getting yet).

The paint isn't paint. It's powder coat--the same stuff they put on patio
furniture.

One thing that caused our existing wrought iron fence to disintegrate is
our sprinklers. Most of the backyard near the pool is lawn and the
sprinkler overspray typically hits the bottom 5" or so of the fence, no
matter what kind of adjustments I make to the sprinkler heads. I'd
imagine that exposure to direct water spray twice a week for 45 minutes is
a fairly demanding application.

--Paul
** Note "removemunged" in email address and remove to reply. **

[b***@MIX.COM]

Post by Paul Wylie
The paint isn't paint. It's powder coat--the same stuff they put on patio
furniture.

Speaking of that I've seen some coated with something supposedly used on
the space shuttle - it seems rock hard and fairly durable. I've forgotten
who makes it, I saw it at Pepperdine U. and I'll be back there at the end
of the week if you'd like me to find out....

Post by Paul Wylie
One thing that caused our existing wrought iron fence to disintegrate is
our sprinklers.

This stuff is supposed to be waterproof. When I last saw it was before
the rainy season that's just ended, one of the heaviest in LA history.
Eventually we'll be working at that part of the campus (business school)
so I'll get to see how it held up.

Billy Y..

[Moe Trin]

Post by b***@MIX.COM

Post by Paul Wylie
The paint isn't paint. It's powder coat--the same stuff they put on patio
furniture.

Speaking of that I've seen some coated with something supposedly used on
the space shuttle - it seems rock hard and fairly durable. I've forgotten
who makes it, I saw it at Pepperdine U. and I'll be back there at the end
of the week if you'd like me to find out....

That's _probably_ a "lead boro-silicate" based vitreous enamel, that when
fired (920F) becomes a glass coating. It does bond to the surface, so that
it is pretty durable. However, it's subject to mechanical damage from
flying rocks and the like.

Post by b***@MIX.COM

Post by Paul Wylie
One thing that caused our existing wrought iron fence to disintegrate is
our sprinklers.

This stuff is supposed to be waterproof. When I last saw it was before
the rainy season that's just ended, one of the heaviest in LA history.

Yeah, we got some decent rain too. I'm in (far) North Phoenix, and have
10.75 inches since 1/1/05 and 12.33 inches since Christmas. That's well
above the official site at Sky Harbor, and about twice what I'm told is
normal,

Post by b***@MIX.COM
Eventually we'll be working at that part of the campus (business school)
so I'll get to see how it held up.

If the coating is undamaged, I'd expect it to be without a problem. Assuming
the metal is thick/strong enough to not be flexing (large enough hail, or
a strong earthquake, or the like), the glass coating should not porous.
The problem is once the coating is cracked, the water can get in under it,
and in the case of wrought iron, that's all she wrote. Aluminum would have
less of a problem that way. A more common problem is galvanic corrosion
where the aluminum is in contact with dissimilar metals - such as screws,
and so on, in the presence of moisture.

Old guy

[h***@oddkarma.com]

I have nothing to contribute to this thread, but I wish you well. One one
hand, I will never have to worry about building a fence here in California
since none of the newer housing has the room for fences. On the other
hand, it must be nice to have a backyard with enough room to fit more
than a small cat.

And based on my lack of any applicable knowledge, go aluminum fencing!

[American Idle]

Post by h***@oddkarma.com
I have nothing to contribute to this thread, but I wish you well. One one
hand, I will never have to worry about building a fence here in California
since none of the newer housing has the room for fences. On the other
hand, it must be nice to have a backyard with enough room to fit more
than a small cat.
And based on my lack of any applicable knowledge, go aluminum fencing!

Which is better for cooling the fence? A pancake fan or passive heat
sink?

[Moe Trin]

Post by American Idle

Post by h***@oddkarma.com
And based on my lack of any applicable knowledge, go aluminum fencing!

Which is better for cooling the fence? A pancake fan or passive heat
sink

Given that the common fence is built of half inch and one inch square
drawn aluminum tubing and painted black, we actually cool it with
pool water pumped through the interior of the fence. Some people are
lucky (or smart) and have colors other than black, but this merely
reduces the cooling volume required to keep the fence at or below a
safe temperature. This has the added advantage of increasing the water
temps above the mere +30 that an unheated pool would be at the moment,
but some people complain if the water is over +45. No, that's not 45F.

Old guy

[Blair P. Houghton]

Post by American Idle

Post by h***@oddkarma.com
And based on my lack of any applicable knowledge, go aluminum fencing!

Which is better for cooling the fence? A pancake fan or passive heat
sink?

The dripping blood of the example to the other vandals.

--Blair
"Considering going tagger hunting."

[h***@oddkarma.com]

Post by American Idle
Which is better for cooling the fence? A pancake fan or passive heat
sink?

Pfeh. Mineral oil, of course. Or Liquid Nitrogen if you got it.

[Moe Trin]

Post by h***@oddkarma.com
I have nothing to contribute to this thread, but I wish you well. One one
hand, I will never have to worry about building a fence here in California
since none of the newer housing has the room for fences.

Yeah, the place we had in Sunnyvale (7 NW San Jose) had a 1200 square
house on a 52 x 108 lot - there was a full 6 feet between the house
and the fence at the edge of the property. The place I'm now in
in Phoenix (close enough) is a larger house (thank you Internal Revenue
Service), and the lot is a gigantic 70 x 103 - why, there's nearly ten
feet on either side of the house!!!

Post by h***@oddkarma.com
On the other hand, it must be nice to have a backyard with enough room to
fit more than a small cat.

Regrettably, our vet has recommended that the cats not be allowed into the
back yard - Wile E Coyote lives in the desert which is only 700 feet
away, and cats are easier to catch than road runners. On the other
hand, that means more room for us.

Old guy

[b***@MIX.COM]

Post by b***@MIX.COM

Post by Paul Wylie
The paint isn't paint. It's powder coat--the same stuff they put on
patio furniture.

Speaking of that I've seen some coated with something supposedly used on
the space shuttle - it seems rock hard and fairly durable. I've forgotten
who makes it, I saw it at Pepperdine U. and I'll be back there at the end
of the week if you'd like me to find out....

I finally got to look at all this again - it all still looks brand new.
As it turns out it's made by Weatherend Estate Furniture and while they
have no connection with the space shuttle they do build things extremely
well. Their web site is (what else..) http://weatherend.com/

Billy Y..

[Moe Trin]

Post by Paul Wylie

Post by b***@MIX.COM
I can say that 6061 half-hard 0.25" aluminum plates have held up well
as cable entrance panels on television broadcasting trucks for 20-30
years. This is a fairly harsh environment, probably worse than a pool
fence in Phoenix.

"half hard" - that's not a common term used with 6061 which is normally
thermally treated (6061-T4, T6, T451 and T651), rather than 'hardened'
which would have an -Hxx or -Hxxx number.

Post by Paul Wylie
Well, the manufacturer of one kind of aluminum fence we're considering
(Alumifence) uses 6061-T6 or 6063-T6 for its fencing (don't know which
we'd be getting yet).

For the same temper, 6061 is significantly stronger, but 6063 is somewhat
more corrosion resistant. Thus, 6061 should be thinner (lighter), and
somewhat cheaper for the same strength.

Post by Paul Wylie
The paint isn't paint. It's powder coat--the same stuff they put on patio
furniture.

Probably a lead boro-silicate which when baked forms a complex glass like
coating. Think of it as a form of pottery glaze. Again, the problem is
mechanical damage - microcracks that may allow moisture penetration.

Another important point is the field joints. The sections are probably
welded together at the fabrication facility, and the powered coat baked
on there, but they can't assemble your 150 foot long fence there. There
has to be field joints, where the installer joins these sections. The
question then becomes how are they making these joints, and how are the
joints then painted/protected? The joining is likely to be welding,
brazing, riveting (screws/bolts are less likely) or a mechanical force
fit (swaging). All of these methods will damage the "factory" finish to
one degree or another. Field application of a power finish is extremely
difficult, so what are they doing instead?

Post by Paul Wylie
One thing that caused our existing wrought iron fence to disintegrate is
our sprinklers. Most of the backyard near the pool is lawn and the
sprinkler overspray typically hits the bottom 5" or so of the fence, no
matter what kind of adjustments I make to the sprinkler heads.

Yup! In my case, two of the sprinkler heads are right next to the fence,
and even though the sprinklers run between 05:00 and 06:30 (generally
light to nil winds), it's impossibly to prevent the fence from being
hit. I suppose if it were windy, it might be better for the fence if it
were blown dry rather than having the Phoenix water evaporate away
leaving a nice coat of mineral salts.

Post by Paul Wylie
I'd imagine that exposure to direct water spray twice a week for 45
minutes is a fairly demanding application.

Our solution is to wax the fence (I really do try to remember to wax it
at least yearly - I fail, but I do try), using an aircraft grade of "wax".
I checked yesterday, and I'm out, so it will be off to Deer Valley Airport
to pick up some more. I wish I could remember the brand I'm using, but it's
a resin based product rather than a wax. A tip - buy several pair of
cotton gloves, and use that as your applicator. When painting, we used the
same thing, but word "rubber" gloves underneath. When done, simply toss
the gloves - they're not worth cleaning.

Old guy

[Moe Trin]

In article <***@compton.phx.az.us>, Moe Trin wrote:

Sigh... I have a speel checker, not a phrase checker

Post by Moe Trin
Yup! In my case, two of the sprinkler heads are right next to the fence,
and even though the sprinklers run between 05:00 and 06:30 (generally
light to nil winds), it's impossibly to prevent the fence from being

Yup! In my case, two of the sprinkler heads are right next to the fence,
and even though the sprinklers run between 05:00 and 06:30 (generally
light to nil winds), it's impossible to prevent the fence from being

Post by Moe Trin
When painting, we used the
same thing, but word "rubber" gloves underneath.

When painting, we used the same thing, but wore "rubber" gloves underneath.

Old guy

[Blair P. Houghton]

Wrap that rascal.

Not having sprogs solves the problem entirely.

--Blair
"Happy splashing."

[Paul Wylie]

Post by Blair P. Houghton
Wrap that rascal.
Not having sprogs solves the problem entirely.

Too late. We already have a one-year-old (well, he'll be one in a couple
of weeks) and plans for more.

--Paul
** Note "removemunged" in email address and remove to reply. **

[Blair P. Houghton]

Post by Paul Wylie

Post by Blair P. Houghton
Wrap that rascal.
Not having sprogs solves the problem entirely.

Too late. We already have a one-year-old (well, he'll be one in a couple
of weeks) and plans for more.

A buddy of mine is raising three daughters from peanuts;
he has one of those nets that you stretch across the pool.

--Blair
"And yes, he's quite the marginalized
gender component in the family."

[Moe Trin]

Post by Blair P. Houghton
A buddy of mine is raising three daughters from peanuts;
he has one of those nets that you stretch across the pool.

Does that satisfy the "legal" requirements (relating to selling the
home to families with children)? I realize that it may (depending
on how hard it is to get underneath the net) satisfy the intent of
the "law". I have a friend who has a pool in one of these typical
postage stamp lots, and the builder installed a latch in the only
door that opens onto that area, rather than a fence. The latch,
operated by the same type of knob you see on the inside of a deadbolt,
was located five feet above the floor. I'd be concerned about that,
as this is a fire exit, and there is nothing preventing the sprogs
from dragging a chair, or step-stool to the door.

Old guy

[r***@allsafepool.com]

Obviously this post is very old so I assume you already made a decision ... but for anyone else who is considering a pool fence take a look at removable mesh pool fencing. Here is a good site www.allsafepool.com

Post by Paul Wylie
My wrought-iron pool fence is about 20 years old and is quickly becoming a
complete wreck.
My wife and have gotten estimates for new fencing, and it ain't cheap.
We're looking at about 150 linear feet of fencing, and it'll cost us close
to $5,000 installed (including the cost of removing and hauling away the
old fence).
The big question is: PVC or aluminum? I was all set to specify aluminum,
but it's roughly 20% more expensive in terms of materials (the labor, etc.
are about the same).
The PVC includes a lifetime warranty, but I'm skeptical about that. Every
piece of plastic I've ever seen exposed to AZ sunlight has broken down
pretty quickly, and I have a suspicion that even if this stuff is as
durable as they claim, by the time I'd need to file a warranty claim,
the manufacurer will be long gone.
Aluminum generally includes a 10 year warranty, although Home Depot's
install-it-yourself aluminum fencing has a 20 year warranty.
So, does anybody have any experience with getting a new pool fence and
have any recommendations? Would you recommend PVC or aluminum, or the
other way around? Do you have any installers to avoid, or one you'd swear
by?
I'm looking at paying half up front, and waiting 3 weeks to get the
fencing manufactured, so I'm leery of jumping into something without a
good understanding of the issues and risks.
That said, I need to do something soon because my existing fence is in
such poor shape.
Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.
--Paul
** Note "removemunged" in email address and remove to reply. **

[Paul Wylie]

Post by r***@allsafepool.com
Obviously this post is very old so I assume you already made a
decision ... but for anyone else who is considering a pool fence take
a look at removable mesh pool fencing. Here is a good site
www.allsafepool.com

No offense, but yeccch. I considered and immediately dismissed
removable mesh fencing long ago.

I did ultimately buy aluminum fencing, and 7 years later, I'm still glad
I bought the aluminum fence. The rails and posts are much narrower for
the same strength than an equivalent PVC fence would have been. The
only issue I've had is that I have needed to replace the self-closing
hinges on one of my two gates (the hinge housings are dark plastic and
had cracked).

A friend of mine bought a wrought iron fence for his pool five years
ago, and it's already falling apart.

And if I'd made the mistake of buying a removable mesh fence, it would
have been destroyed by my dogs. They're very sweet, but they're very
destructive right now.

--Paul
** Note "removemunged" in email address and remove to reply. **