Discussion:
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design
(too old to reply)
Jim Thompson
2004-07-16 15:04:46 UTC
Permalink
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...

http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Tim Wescott
2004-07-16 15:17:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
So you _are_ working for Microsoft -- no, wait -- this is probably much
more reliable.

Never mind.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
John Larkin
2004-07-16 15:35:45 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
So, what's your estimate of the total number of JT-designed ICs that
have ever been produced? I mean actual individual chips, not designs.

John
Jim Thompson
2004-07-16 16:03:33 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:35:45 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
So, what's your estimate of the total number of JT-designed ICs that
have ever been produced? I mean actual individual chips, not designs.
John
I wouldn't know where to begin.

Probably the 1488/1489 RS-232 chip set would have had the highest
volume.

Although my alternator regulator chips would be up in the millions
also.

The PLL stuff would be high volume but not astronomic.

Then I have probably 100 custom chips, designed for
application-specific use, probably each in the 10K/year category.

But this latest one for SC Johnson will probably be an all-time
high... only way the volume could be any better would be if it fit
into a TP dispenser ;-)

BTW: This design runs off a single cell, boosts its own VDD, and has
also a HV output to drive a piezo actuator that drives the pump. Also
counts the time between "squirts" ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
John Larkin
2004-07-16 16:52:50 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:03:33 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:35:45 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
So, what's your estimate of the total number of JT-designed ICs that
have ever been produced? I mean actual individual chips, not designs.
John
I wouldn't know where to begin.
Probably the 1488/1489 RS-232 chip set would have had the highest
volume.
Although my alternator regulator chips would be up in the millions
also.
The PLL stuff would be high volume but not astronomic.
Then I have probably 100 custom chips, designed for
application-specific use, probably each in the 10K/year category.
But this latest one for SC Johnson will probably be an all-time
high... only way the volume could be any better would be if it fit
into a TP dispenser ;-)
BTW: This design runs off a single cell, boosts its own VDD, and has
also a HV output to drive a piezo actuator that drives the pump. Also
counts the time between "squirts" ;-)
...Jim Thompson
Hey, Here's my latest gadget:

http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/P400DS.html

Actually, three of us here worked on this for about three years as
sort of a background project, when we didn't have a paying customer
screaming for delivery on something. I never appreciated how much
hassle a benchtop instrument would really be until this got serious. A
VME or PCI board is blindingly simple compared to all the stuff you
have to put into a box like this. And by the time you finish it,
things have changed so much you're dying to redesign it again from
scratch. m.u.s.t..r.e.s.i.s.t..t.e.m.p.t.a.t.i.o.n.

John
Jim Thompson
2004-07-16 17:17:03 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:52:50 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:03:33 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:35:45 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
So, what's your estimate of the total number of JT-designed ICs that
have ever been produced? I mean actual individual chips, not designs.
John
I wouldn't know where to begin.
Probably the 1488/1489 RS-232 chip set would have had the highest
volume.
Although my alternator regulator chips would be up in the millions
also.
The PLL stuff would be high volume but not astronomic.
Then I have probably 100 custom chips, designed for
application-specific use, probably each in the 10K/year category.
But this latest one for SC Johnson will probably be an all-time
high... only way the volume could be any better would be if it fit
into a TP dispenser ;-)
BTW: This design runs off a single cell, boosts its own VDD, and has
also a HV output to drive a piezo actuator that drives the pump. Also
counts the time between "squirts" ;-)
...Jim Thompson
http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/P400DS.html
Actually, three of us here worked on this for about three years as
sort of a background project, when we didn't have a paying customer
screaming for delivery on something. I never appreciated how much
hassle a benchtop instrument would really be until this got serious. A
VME or PCI board is blindingly simple compared to all the stuff you
have to put into a box like this. And by the time you finish it,
things have changed so much you're dying to redesign it again from
scratch. m.u.s.t..r.e.s.i.s.t..t.e.m.p.t.a.t.i.o.n.
John
ROTFLMAO! That's a constant problem with circuit designers... when to
let it loose and call it completed... I'm always in a quandary with
"perfection" ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Mark Valery
2004-07-16 21:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:52:50 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:03:33 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:35:45 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
So, what's your estimate of the total number of JT-designed ICs that
have ever been produced? I mean actual individual chips, not designs.
John
I wouldn't know where to begin.
Probably the 1488/1489 RS-232 chip set would have had the highest
volume.
Although my alternator regulator chips would be up in the millions
also.
The PLL stuff would be high volume but not astronomic.
Then I have probably 100 custom chips, designed for
application-specific use, probably each in the 10K/year category.
But this latest one for SC Johnson will probably be an all-time
high... only way the volume could be any better would be if it fit
into a TP dispenser ;-)
BTW: This design runs off a single cell, boosts its own VDD, and has
also a HV output to drive a piezo actuator that drives the pump. Also
counts the time between "squirts" ;-)
...Jim Thompson
http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/P400DS.html
Actually, three of us here worked on this for about three years as
sort of a background project, when we didn't have a paying customer
screaming for delivery on something. I never appreciated how much
hassle a benchtop instrument would really be until this got serious. A
VME or PCI board is blindingly simple compared to all the stuff you
have to put into a box like this. And by the time you finish it,
things have changed so much you're dying to redesign it again from
scratch. m.u.s.t..r.e.s.i.s.t..t.e.m.p.t.a.t.i.o.n.
John
ROTFLMAO! That's a constant problem with circuit designers... when to
let it loose and call it completed... I'm always in a quandary with
"perfection" ;-)
...Jim Thompson
I don't know what ROTFLMAO stands for, but an old engineer once
said to me "Shoot the engineer, deliver the product".

Mark
Jim Thompson
2004-07-16 21:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:52:50 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:03:33 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:35:45 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
So, what's your estimate of the total number of JT-designed ICs that
have ever been produced? I mean actual individual chips, not designs.
John
I wouldn't know where to begin.
Probably the 1488/1489 RS-232 chip set would have had the highest
volume.
Although my alternator regulator chips would be up in the millions
also.
The PLL stuff would be high volume but not astronomic.
Then I have probably 100 custom chips, designed for
application-specific use, probably each in the 10K/year category.
But this latest one for SC Johnson will probably be an all-time
high... only way the volume could be any better would be if it fit
into a TP dispenser ;-)
BTW: This design runs off a single cell, boosts its own VDD, and has
also a HV output to drive a piezo actuator that drives the pump. Also
counts the time between "squirts" ;-)
...Jim Thompson
http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/P400DS.html
Actually, three of us here worked on this for about three years as
sort of a background project, when we didn't have a paying customer
screaming for delivery on something. I never appreciated how much
hassle a benchtop instrument would really be until this got serious. A
VME or PCI board is blindingly simple compared to all the stuff you
have to put into a box like this. And by the time you finish it,
things have changed so much you're dying to redesign it again from
scratch. m.u.s.t..r.e.s.i.s.t..t.e.m.p.t.a.t.i.o.n.
John
ROTFLMAO! That's a constant problem with circuit designers... when to
let it loose and call it completed... I'm always in a quandary with
"perfection" ;-)
...Jim Thompson
I don't know what ROTFLMAO stands for, but an old engineer once
said to me "Shoot the engineer, deliver the product".
Mark
ROTFLMAO => Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Activ8
2004-07-17 07:15:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:52:50 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:03:33 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:35:45 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
So, what's your estimate of the total number of JT-designed ICs that
have ever been produced? I mean actual individual chips, not designs.
John
I wouldn't know where to begin.
Probably the 1488/1489 RS-232 chip set would have had the highest
volume.
Although my alternator regulator chips would be up in the millions
also.
The PLL stuff would be high volume but not astronomic.
Then I have probably 100 custom chips, designed for
application-specific use, probably each in the 10K/year category.
But this latest one for SC Johnson will probably be an all-time
high... only way the volume could be any better would be if it fit
into a TP dispenser ;-)
BTW: This design runs off a single cell, boosts its own VDD, and has
also a HV output to drive a piezo actuator that drives the pump. Also
counts the time between "squirts" ;-)
...Jim Thompson
http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/P400DS.html
Actually, three of us here worked on this for about three years as
sort of a background project, when we didn't have a paying customer
screaming for delivery on something. I never appreciated how much
hassle a benchtop instrument would really be until this got serious. A
VME or PCI board is blindingly simple compared to all the stuff you
have to put into a box like this. And by the time you finish it,
things have changed so much you're dying to redesign it again from
scratch. m.u.s.t..r.e.s.i.s.t..t.e.m.p.t.a.t.i.o.n.
John
ROTFLMAO! That's a constant problem with circuit designers... when to
let it loose and call it completed... I'm always in a quandary with
"perfection" ;-)
...Jim Thompson
I don't know what ROTFLMAO stands for, but an old engineer once
said to me "Shoot the engineer, deliver the product".
Mark
The "T" isn't neccessary. If you're not using Forte Agent, 40tude
Dialog is a good reader and it under lines those abbrrevs and
acronyms and give the definition if you hover the mouse pointer over
it.

As soon as I finish migrating to Agent that's history, but you can
type those things in google and get an answer rapidly.

Of course, in this group, when someone types PCB, it doesn't mean
"please call back."
--
Best Regards,
Mike
Watson A.Name "Watt Sun - the Dark Remover"
2004-07-17 01:14:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:52:50 -0700, John Larkin
[snip]
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by John Larkin
And by the time you finish it,
things have changed so much you're dying to redesign it again from
scratch. m.u.s.t..r.e.s.i.s.t..t.e.m.p.t.a.t.i.o.n.
John
ROTFLMAO! That's a constant problem with circuit designers... when to
let it loose and call it completed... I'm always in a quandary with
"perfection" ;-)
I thought that's why god made EEPROMs - so you could make major changes
with a chip change. You can just charge the customer a couple thou to
fly a tech out and 'upgrade ' the box, and recal it.
Post by Jim Thompson
...Jim Thompson
Tim Wescott
2004-07-16 16:51:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:35:45 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
So, what's your estimate of the total number of JT-designed ICs that
have ever been produced? I mean actual individual chips, not designs.
John
I wouldn't know where to begin.
Probably the 1488/1489 RS-232 chip set would have had the highest
volume.
Although my alternator regulator chips would be up in the millions
also.
The PLL stuff would be high volume but not astronomic.
Then I have probably 100 custom chips, designed for
application-specific use, probably each in the 10K/year category.
But this latest one for SC Johnson will probably be an all-time
high... only way the volume could be any better would be if it fit
into a TP dispenser ;-)
BTW: This design runs off a single cell, boosts its own VDD, and has
also a HV output to drive a piezo actuator that drives the pump. Also
counts the time between "squirts" ;-)
...Jim Thompson
I suppose this is going to be even more volume than those cheezy $5.00
calculators -- but how about $1.98 wristwatches?

Which PLL stuff did you design, and are there any useful Motorola (sorry
-- freonscale) chips that you _haven't_ designed?
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Jim Thompson
2004-07-16 17:14:49 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:51:18 -0700, Tim Wescott
Post by Tim Wescott
Post by Jim Thompson
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:35:45 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
So, what's your estimate of the total number of JT-designed ICs that
have ever been produced? I mean actual individual chips, not designs.
John
I wouldn't know where to begin.
Probably the 1488/1489 RS-232 chip set would have had the highest
volume.
Although my alternator regulator chips would be up in the millions
also.
The PLL stuff would be high volume but not astronomic.
Then I have probably 100 custom chips, designed for
application-specific use, probably each in the 10K/year category.
But this latest one for SC Johnson will probably be an all-time
high... only way the volume could be any better would be if it fit
into a TP dispenser ;-)
BTW: This design runs off a single cell, boosts its own VDD, and has
also a HV output to drive a piezo actuator that drives the pump. Also
counts the time between "squirts" ;-)
...Jim Thompson
I suppose this is going to be even more volume than those cheezy $5.00
calculators -- but how about $1.98 wristwatches?
Which PLL stuff did you design, and are there any useful Motorola (sorry
-- freonscale) chips that you _haven't_ designed?
I laid myself off in 1970, so anything after that is someone else's
work.... although there's really nothing new, just process
improvements on designs by Ron Treadway and myself.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Tim Wescott
2004-07-16 17:48:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:51:18 -0700, Tim Wescott
Post by Tim Wescott
Post by Jim Thompson
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:35:45 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
So, what's your estimate of the total number of JT-designed ICs that
have ever been produced? I mean actual individual chips, not designs.
John
I wouldn't know where to begin.
Probably the 1488/1489 RS-232 chip set would have had the highest
volume.
Although my alternator regulator chips would be up in the millions
also.
The PLL stuff would be high volume but not astronomic.
Then I have probably 100 custom chips, designed for
application-specific use, probably each in the 10K/year category.
But this latest one for SC Johnson will probably be an all-time
high... only way the volume could be any better would be if it fit
into a TP dispenser ;-)
BTW: This design runs off a single cell, boosts its own VDD, and has
also a HV output to drive a piezo actuator that drives the pump. Also
counts the time between "squirts" ;-)
...Jim Thompson
I suppose this is going to be even more volume than those cheezy $5.00
calculators -- but how about $1.98 wristwatches?
Which PLL stuff did you design, and are there any useful Motorola (sorry
-- freonscale) chips that you _haven't_ designed?
I laid myself off in 1970, so anything after that is someone else's
work.... although there's really nothing new, just process
improvements on designs by Ron Treadway and myself.
...Jim Thompson
I've never laid myself off, but I've fired the boss three times now.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Tim Shoppa
2004-07-17 19:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Wescott
I suppose this is going to be even more volume than those cheezy $5.00
calculators
At Target last week, 8-digit-LCD-4-bangers were selling for $0.49. They'd
been reduced from $0.99.

Tim.
Tim Wescott
2004-07-17 21:09:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Tim Wescott
I suppose this is going to be even more volume than those cheezy $5.00
calculators
At Target last week, 8-digit-LCD-4-bangers were selling for $0.49. They'd
been reduced from $0.99.
Tim.
I wish I could figure out a way to put a PIC or an AVR into one of those
and make a real calculator out of it -- the keyboard's all there as long
as you remember that '=' means 'enter'.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Tim Shoppa
2004-07-18 10:21:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Wescott
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Tim Wescott
I suppose this is going to be even more volume than those cheezy $5.00
calculators
At Target last week, 8-digit-LCD-4-bangers were selling for $0.49. They'd
been reduced from $0.99.
Tim.
I wish I could figure out a way to put a PIC or an AVR into one of those
and make a real calculator out of it -- the keyboard's all there as long
as you remember that '=' means 'enter'.
The hardest part is probably the LCD driver. The $0.49 calculator I
mentioned has about 40 wires running to the LCD which I figure means
that it's half-multiplexed (4 digits at a time). A PIC16C923 could probably
be made to fit, although it'd be tight. You'd need more than a single
1.5V cell to run it, I'm pretty sure.

Tim.
Spehro Pefhany
2004-07-18 10:57:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Tim Wescott
Post by Tim Shoppa
Post by Tim Wescott
I suppose this is going to be even more volume than those cheezy $5.00
calculators
At Target last week, 8-digit-LCD-4-bangers were selling for $0.49. They'd
been reduced from $0.99.
Tim.
I wish I could figure out a way to put a PIC or an AVR into one of those
and make a real calculator out of it -- the keyboard's all there as long
as you remember that '=' means 'enter'.
The hardest part is probably the LCD driver. The $0.49 calculator I
mentioned has about 40 wires running to the LCD which I figure means
that it's half-multiplexed (4 digits at a time). A PIC16C923 could probably
be made to fit, although it'd be tight. You'd need more than a single
1.5V cell to run it, I'm pretty sure.
Tim.
I'd use a MSP430 flash micro with LCD controller and boost the single
cell to 3V with an external converter or use two cells. Battery life
probably won't be as good, even so.

eg. http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/msp430f436.pdf

Only $9.40 each in stock at Digikey in 100 LQFP. ;-)

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
***@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Joerg
2004-07-16 19:13:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jim,
Post by Jim Thompson
Probably the 1488/1489 RS-232 chip set would have had the highest
volume.
If you count the "C" siblings that came after your original I probably
added another boat load of consumed chips here ;-)

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
John Fields
2004-07-16 22:17:28 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:13:01 GMT, Joerg
Post by Joerg
Hi Jim,
Post by Jim Thompson
Probably the 1488/1489 RS-232 chip set would have had the highest
volume.
If you count the "C" siblings that came after your original I probably
added another boat load of consumed chips here ;-)
---
Ah, Yesss... the unmistakable odor of molten polysilicon charring, in
the long term, cubic yards of epoxy B...
--
John Fields
Joerg
2004-07-17 19:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Hi John,
Post by John Fields
Ah, Yesss... the unmistakable odor of molten polysilicon charring, in
the long term, cubic yards of epoxy B...
No, I started "consuming" them around the time when I read about a
Brazilian who had successfully eaten more than half of his VW Beetle...

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Ian Stirling
2004-07-17 00:30:37 UTC
Permalink
In sci.electronics.design Jim Thompson <***@example.com> wrote:
<snip>
Post by Jim Thompson
BTW: This design runs off a single cell, boosts its own VDD, and has
also a HV output to drive a piezo actuator that drives the pump. Also
counts the time between "squirts" ;-)
Can you give any more info about the pump, sounds like it might be handy
for micropumping applications, at a fraction of the price of a proper one.

Can the timer be defeated so it runs whenever it gets power?

Just shows that though it's a simple circuit, that even I could
design in a couple of hours, and probably use no more than 7 components
that there'll be a place for custom silicon for a while yet.
Jim Thompson
2004-07-17 00:40:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Stirling
<snip>
Post by Jim Thompson
BTW: This design runs off a single cell, boosts its own VDD, and has
also a HV output to drive a piezo actuator that drives the pump. Also
counts the time between "squirts" ;-)
Can you give any more info about the pump, sounds like it might be handy
for micropumping applications, at a fraction of the price of a proper one.
Can the timer be defeated so it runs whenever it gets power?
Just shows that though it's a simple circuit, that even I could
design in a couple of hours, and probably use no more than 7 components
that there'll be a place for custom silicon for a while yet.
Not so easy there. There's a 60 day refill life, but there's a 6
month battery-life spec ;-)

It's a custom ASIC, not publicly available; and the piezo-mechanical
pump was developed by Fitch, an SC Johnson subsidiary.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Ian Stirling
2004-07-17 10:52:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Ian Stirling
<snip>
Post by Jim Thompson
BTW: This design runs off a single cell, boosts its own VDD, and has
also a HV output to drive a piezo actuator that drives the pump. Also
counts the time between "squirts" ;-)
Can you give any more info about the pump, sounds like it might be handy
for micropumping applications, at a fraction of the price of a proper one.
Can the timer be defeated so it runs whenever it gets power?
Just shows that though it's a simple circuit, that even I could
design in a couple of hours, and probably use no more than 7 components
that there'll be a place for custom silicon for a while yet.
Not so easy there. There's a 60 day refill life, but there's a 6
month battery-life spec ;-)
Oops, I meant to add "and lasts a month on 2 D cells".
Post by Jim Thompson
It's a custom ASIC, not publicly available; and the piezo-mechanical
pump was developed by Fitch, an SC Johnson subsidiary.
Oh well, it seems not to be on sale in the UK, so it's not quite so easy
to get to play with.
Thanks.
Watson A.Name "Watt Sun - the Dark Remover"
2004-07-17 01:08:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:35:45 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
So, what's your estimate of the total number of JT-designed ICs that
have ever been produced? I mean actual individual chips, not designs.
John
I wouldn't know where to begin.
Probably the 1488/1489 RS-232 chip set would have had the highest
volume.
But not due to lack of ruggedness. Every Radio Snack carries (or
carried) these, and they just gathered dust on the shelf, indicating to
me that there were not many of them going bad. Must've been built like
the proverbial brick sh#thouse. ;-)
Post by Jim Thompson
Although my alternator regulator chips would be up in the millions
also.
Each one being connected to an automobile, so you can get a good idea of
the quantity by looking at the number of vehicles sold.
Post by Jim Thompson
The PLL stuff would be high volume but not astronomic.
Then I have probably 100 custom chips, designed for
application-specific use, probably each in the 10K/year category.
But this latest one for SC Johnson will probably be an all-time
high... only way the volume could be any better would be if it fit
into a TP dispenser ;-)
Unfortunately huge volume would mean very low cost, and not a lotta $$$.
Post by Jim Thompson
BTW: This design runs off a single cell, boosts its own VDD, and has
also a HV output to drive a piezo actuator that drives the pump. Also
counts the time between "squirts" ;-)
Who makes them? Or who makes the circuit board? Or who makes.... :-?
Post by Jim Thompson
...Jim Thompson
John Woodgate
2004-07-16 15:53:00 UTC
Permalink
I read in sci.electronics.design that Jim Thompson
<***@example.com> wrote (in <qfrff09ri4ooh4q1j6iq90sudjuo4llsil@
4ax.com>) about 'One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
Have you got versions for elderly electronic engineers that emit 'sawing
Ebonite', 'hot Paxolin' and 'selenium dioxide'? (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
Jim Thompson
2004-07-16 17:17:58 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:53:00 +0100, John Woodgate
Post by John Woodgate
I read in sci.electronics.design that Jim Thompson
4ax.com>) about 'One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
Have you got versions for elderly electronic engineers that emit 'sawing
Ebonite', 'hot Paxolin' and 'selenium dioxide'? (;-)
I don't think SC Johnson would find those odors acceptable ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Joerg
2004-07-16 19:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi John,
Post by John Woodgate
Have you got versions for elderly electronic engineers that emit 'sawing
Ebonite', 'hot Paxolin' and 'selenium dioxide'? (;-)
How about "drilling bakelite"? Or "overloaded carbon resistor", "eau de
electrolytics" and "parfume de tubes with dust on them"?

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Roy McCammon
2004-07-16 17:01:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
must be one of those obscure definitions of "contribution"
with which I am not familiar.
--
local optimization seldom leads to global optimization

my e-mail address is: <my first name> <my last name> AT mmm DOT com
Jim Thompson
2004-07-16 17:34:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roy McCammon
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
must be one of those obscure definitions of "contribution"
with which I am not familiar.
'Twas tongue-in-cheek. It's my chip in the product. But it's this
sort of thing that makes more money than PLLs, for instance.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Roy McCammon
2004-07-17 04:56:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Roy McCammon
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
must be one of those obscure definitions of "contribution"
with which I am not familiar.
'Twas tongue-in-cheek. It's my chip in the product. But it's this
sort of thing that makes more money than PLLs, for instance.
I still a got a tongue in my cheek.
Julie
2004-07-16 18:06:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
Nice.

Just out of curiosity (I'm not after $$ figures), but how is a chip project
like that handled?

Did you design that chip specifically for SC Johnson, under contract?

On what are your payments based? Was it a fixed-amount one-time payment,
per-piece license fee? Who owns the rights to the design?

Finally, who handles your licensing/contract agreements?

Thanks for any info --
Activ8
2004-07-17 02:44:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julie
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
Nice.
Just out of curiosity (I'm not after $$ figures), but how is a chip project
like that handled?
Did you design that chip specifically for SC Johnson, under contract?
On what are your payments based? Was it a fixed-amount one-time payment,
per-piece license fee? Who owns the rights to the design?
Finally, who handles your licensing/contract agreements?
Thanks for any info --
That's basically what I'd ask, but if you recall, Jim kill filed
you. Maybe you've been pardoned by now.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
Julie
2004-07-17 06:23:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Activ8
Post by Julie
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
Nice.
Just out of curiosity (I'm not after $$ figures), but how is a chip project
like that handled?
Did you design that chip specifically for SC Johnson, under contract?
On what are your payments based? Was it a fixed-amount one-time payment,
per-piece license fee? Who owns the rights to the design?
Finally, who handles your licensing/contract agreements?
Thanks for any info --
That's basically what I'd ask, but if you recall, Jim kill filed
you. Maybe you've been pardoned by now.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
Right -- I forgot. One of my raining on the OT parades.

Oh well.
Activ8
2004-07-17 18:14:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julie
Post by Activ8
Post by Julie
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
Nice.
Just out of curiosity (I'm not after $$ figures), but how is a chip project
like that handled?
Did you design that chip specifically for SC Johnson, under contract?
On what are your payments based? Was it a fixed-amount one-time payment,
per-piece license fee? Who owns the rights to the design?
Finally, who handles your licensing/contract agreements?
Thanks for any info --
That's basically what I'd ask, but if you recall, Jim kill filed
you. Maybe you've been pardoned by now.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
Right -- I forgot. One of my raining on the OT parades.
Oh well.
Just in case Jim doesn't elaborate, IIRC the website is chipcenter,
which has a number of forums, one of which discusses consulting, so
you might poke around there.

You can find other sites, but of course they're not all related to
electronics. I even found a bunch of consulting articles from some
gal who IIRC went into management consulting. First time I ever
visited a site devoed to women, not that that's relevant.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
Julie
2004-07-17 06:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Activ8
Post by Julie
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
Nice.
Just out of curiosity (I'm not after $$ figures), but how is a chip project
like that handled?
Did you design that chip specifically for SC Johnson, under contract?
On what are your payments based? Was it a fixed-amount one-time payment,
per-piece license fee? Who owns the rights to the design?
Finally, who handles your licensing/contract agreements?
Thanks for any info --
That's basically what I'd ask, but if you recall, Jim kill filed
you. Maybe you've been pardoned by now.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
I've got to ask, how in the world did you remember that JT killfiled me?
Activ8
2004-07-17 07:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julie
Post by Activ8
Post by Julie
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
Nice.
Just out of curiosity (I'm not after $$ figures), but how is a chip project
like that handled?
Did you design that chip specifically for SC Johnson, under contract?
On what are your payments based? Was it a fixed-amount one-time payment,
per-piece license fee? Who owns the rights to the design?
Finally, who handles your licensing/contract agreements?
Thanks for any info --
That's basically what I'd ask, but if you recall, Jim kill filed
you. Maybe you've been pardoned by now.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
I've got to ask, how in the world did you remember that JT killfiled me?
I remember just about everything. It keeps people honest, at least
once they figure out that they can't get over on me and that's
assuming that I let them know that I know rather than pretending to
not know... when I really know. You never know :)

BTW. It wasn't your OT mini-rant that got you killfiled and Jim
didn't say why, just that he did it some time ago (prior to that OT
thing.) IIRC he alluded to thinking you were posing as a female,
though I'm not sure that's what landed you in his bozo bin.

At any rate, I'd like to know the answers to those questions.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
Kevin Aylward
2004-07-17 08:10:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Activ8
Post by Julie
Post by Activ8
Post by Julie
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
Nice.
Just out of curiosity (I'm not after $$ figures), but how is a
chip project like that handled?
Did you design that chip specifically for SC Johnson, under
contract?
On what are your payments based? Was it a fixed-amount one-time
payment, per-piece license fee? Who owns the rights to the design?
Finally, who handles your licensing/contract agreements?
Thanks for any info --
That's basically what I'd ask, but if you recall, Jim kill filed
you. Maybe you've been pardoned by now.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
I've got to ask, how in the world did you remember that JT killfiled me?
I remember just about everything. It keeps people honest, at least
once they figure out that they can't get over on me and that's
assuming that I let them know that I know rather than pretending to
not know... when I really know. You never know :)
BTW. It wasn't your OT mini-rant that got you killfiled and Jim
didn't say why, just that he did it some time ago (prior to that OT
thing.) IIRC he alluded to thinking you were posing as a female,
though I'm not sure that's what landed you in his bozo bin.
At any rate, I'd like to know the answers to those questions.
I think I have a pretty good guess. In my view, its just about certian
that the client bought the thing lock, stock and barrel. It would make
little sense for them to do otherwise. There are plenty of independent
consultancies/companies that will do this, i.e. pretty much all of them.
The golden rule, he who has the gold, makes the rules.

Kevin Aylward
***@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
Activ8
2004-07-17 15:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by Activ8
Post by Julie
Post by Activ8
Post by Julie
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
Nice.
Just out of curiosity (I'm not after $$ figures), but how is a
chip project like that handled?
Did you design that chip specifically for SC Johnson, under contract?
On what are your payments based? Was it a fixed-amount one-time
payment, per-piece license fee? Who owns the rights to the design?
Finally, who handles your licensing/contract agreements?
Thanks for any info --
That's basically what I'd ask, but if you recall, Jim kill filed
you. Maybe you've been pardoned by now.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
I've got to ask, how in the world did you remember that JT killfiled me?
I remember just about everything. It keeps people honest, at least
once they figure out that they can't get over on me and that's
assuming that I let them know that I know rather than pretending to
not know... when I really know. You never know :)
BTW. It wasn't your OT mini-rant that got you killfiled and Jim
didn't say why, just that he did it some time ago (prior to that OT
thing.) IIRC he alluded to thinking you were posing as a female,
though I'm not sure that's what landed you in his bozo bin.
At any rate, I'd like to know the answers to those questions.
I think I have a pretty good guess. In my view, its just about certian
that the client bought the thing lock, stock and barrel. It would make
little sense for them to do otherwise. There are plenty of independent
consultancies/companies that will do this, i.e. pretty much all of them.
The golden rule, he who has the gold, makes the rules.
Kevin Aylward
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
I would've guessed that too, Kevin. It was a multipart question,
though. Settle for partial credit? :)
--
Best Regards,
Mike
Jim Thompson
2004-07-17 17:28:02 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Activ8
Post by Kevin Aylward
I think I have a pretty good guess. In my view, its just about certian
that the client bought the thing lock, stock and barrel. It would make
little sense for them to do otherwise. There are plenty of independent
consultancies/companies that will do this, i.e. pretty much all of them.
The golden rule, he who has the gold, makes the rules.
Kevin Aylward
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
I would've guessed that too, Kevin. It was a multipart question,
though. Settle for partial credit? :)
It was a fixed fee contract, and Kevin is right, the clients owns all
;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Martin
2004-07-16 18:13:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
That's pretty cute. My wife wants to know if you could add a sensor to it
that would increase the squirt frequency when I need a shower.
legg
2004-07-17 03:03:16 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
Doesn't it bug you, the avenues open to making a living these days?

When you think of all the things that really need doing; and then even
serious work gets diverted. For example ...

A biomedical laser (portable in-office cataract surgery) ends up
being used as a high tech paint-ball on a tank.

A blood analyser ends up being used mainly for sports drugs or other
'personnel' employee security clearance work.

It doesn't matter how high tech it is, if the chimpanzee you give it
to only uses it to make noises by banging it against rocks or the bars
to it's cage.

RL
fogh
2004-07-17 16:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
Doesn't it bug you, the avenues open to making a living these days?
When you think of all the things that really need doing; and then even
serious work gets diverted. For example ...
A biomedical laser (portable in-office cataract surgery) ends up
being used as a high tech paint-ball on a tank.
A blood analyser ends up being used mainly for sports drugs or other
'personnel' employee security clearance work.
It doesn't matter how high tech it is, if the chimpanzee you give it
to only uses it to make noises by banging it against rocks or the bars
to it's cage.
RL
The most typical example that heard of, around 10 years ago. Sorry but I
have no references :
A brilliant research study that could result in reliable tools to
measure pain of premature babies or autists was made. Cum Laude, et coetera.
The only problem is that no research lab, great hospital, or
pharmaceutical company hired that researcher. The only employer that
he/she found was a food-industrial, who got the technique applied to the
slaughtering of cows: using the pain indicators it was possible to strip
and streamline the slaughter procedure until the point where pain was
detected.
Kevin Aylward
2004-07-17 17:10:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
Doesn't it bug you, the avenues open to making a living these days?
When you think of all the things that really need doing; and then
even serious work gets diverted. For example ...
A biomedical laser (portable in-office cataract surgery) ends up
being used as a high tech paint-ball on a tank.
A blood analyser ends up being used mainly for sports drugs or other
'personnel' employee security clearance work.
It doesn't matter how high tech it is, if the chimpanzee you give it
to only uses it to make noises by banging it against rocks or the
bars to it's cage.
RL
The most typical example that heard of, around 10 years ago. Sorry
A brilliant research study that could result in reliable tools to
measure pain of premature babies or autists was made.
Yeah, sure....
Post by fogh
Cum Laude, et
coetera. The only problem is that no research lab, great hospital,
Not surprising. Such a claim is completely vacuous.
Post by fogh
or pharmaceutical company hired that researcher.
The only employer
that he/she found was a food-industrial, who got the technique
Who just want to appease the antivivisectionists, sure we can tell when
the cow doesn't feel pain. Like, shit they can.
Post by fogh
using the pain indicators it was
possible to strip and streamline the slaughter procedure until the
point where pain was detected.
Cold comfort indeed for the cows. No chance in hell that this system
does as claimed.

Since there is no definition of consciousness, nor anyway to determine
if something has consciousness, it is simply impossible to construct a
"pain detector". There simply is no way of numerically knowing when a
foetus has enough neurons to constitute a feeling of pain within the
current understanding of the brain. One can only "reasonable" say that,
say prior to 3 months from conception, there are essentially no relevant
neural connections, so no pain. However, where a "reasonable" line may
be drawn after his point, is completely arbitrary guesswork.

Related stuff at http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/index.html

Kevin Aylward
***@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
fogh
2004-07-19 09:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
Doesn't it bug you, the avenues open to making a living these days?
When you think of all the things that really need doing; and then
even serious work gets diverted. For example ...
A biomedical laser (portable in-office cataract surgery) ends up
being used as a high tech paint-ball on a tank.
A blood analyser ends up being used mainly for sports drugs or other
'personnel' employee security clearance work.
It doesn't matter how high tech it is, if the chimpanzee you give it
to only uses it to make noises by banging it against rocks or the
bars to it's cage.
RL
The most typical example that heard of, around 10 years ago. Sorry
A brilliant research study that could result in reliable tools to
measure pain of premature babies or autists was made.
Yeah, sure....
Post by fogh
Cum Laude, et
coetera. The only problem is that no research lab, great hospital,
Not surprising. Such a claim is completely vacuous.
Post by fogh
or pharmaceutical company hired that researcher.
The only employer
that he/she found was a food-industrial, who got the technique
Who just want to appease the antivivisectionists, sure we can tell when
the cow doesn't feel pain. Like, shit they can.
Post by fogh
using the pain indicators it was
possible to strip and streamline the slaughter procedure until the
point where pain was detected.
Cold comfort indeed for the cows. No chance in hell that this system
does as claimed.
Since there is no definition of consciousness, nor anyway to determine
if something has consciousness, it is simply impossible to construct a
"pain detector". There simply is no way of numerically knowing when a
foetus has enough neurons to constitute a feeling of pain within the
current understanding of the brain. One can only "reasonable" say that,
say prior to 3 months from conception, there are essentially no relevant
neural connections, so no pain. However, where a "reasonable" line may
be drawn after his point, is completely arbitrary guesswork.
Related stuff at http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/index.html
Kevin,

you are biased and you currently assume (i.e. you are biased by an currently source) that this research had stg to do with electronics or systems. This was a Phd study for the title of doctor in medicine.
I used the word "detector" loosely. I was talking about a clinical procedure to look for non-obvious and non-expressed signs of pain, rather than actual sensor equipment (as in thermocouple, Hall probe ...).
When you know a way to look for a set metabolic manifestations that have been empirically related to pain, you can do that with conventional equipment and you do not need to undertand how the brain or neural nets function.
It would be rather annoying if a physician refused to serve your prescription of penicillin under the pretext that he doesn t understand fully an down to molecular/quantum level the interactions between host and germs.

If you (please) restrict the discussion to those premature foetuses that are 7 month and older. Do you or don t you find that this research had better been used to rationalise the prescription of pain drugs in hospitals rather than efficiency of slaughterhouses ?
Kevin Aylward
2004-07-19 19:32:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
Doesn't it bug you, the avenues open to making a living these
days? >>>
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
When you think of all the things that really need doing; and then
even serious work gets diverted. For example ...
A biomedical laser (portable in-office cataract surgery) ends up
being used as a high tech paint-ball on a tank.
A blood analyser ends up being used mainly for sports drugs or
other >>>'personnel' employee security clearance work.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
It doesn't matter how high tech it is, if the chimpanzee you give
it >>>to only uses it to make noises by banging it against rocks or
the >>>bars to it's cage.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
RL
The most typical example that heard of, around 10 years ago. Sorry
A brilliant research study that could result in reliable tools to
measure pain of premature babies or autists was made.
Yeah, sure....
Post by fogh
Cum Laude, et
coetera. The only problem is that no research lab, great
hospital, >
Post by Kevin Aylward
Not surprising. Such a claim is completely vacuous.
Post by fogh
or pharmaceutical company hired that researcher.
The only employer
that he/she found was a food-industrial, who got the technique
Who just want to appease the antivivisectionists, sure we can tell
when > the cow doesn't feel pain. Like, shit they can.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
using the pain indicators it was
possible to strip and streamline the slaughter procedure until the
point where pain was detected.
Cold comfort indeed for the cows. No chance in hell that this
system > does as claimed.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Since there is no definition of consciousness, nor anyway to
determine > if something has consciousness, it is simply impossible
to construct a > "pain detector". There simply is no way of
numerically knowing when a > foetus has enough neurons to constitute
a feeling of pain within the > current understanding of the brain.
One can only "reasonable" say that, > say prior to 3 months from
conception, there are essentially no relevant > neural connections,
so no pain. However, where a "reasonable" line may > be drawn after
his point, is completely arbitrary guesswork. >
Post by Kevin Aylward
Related stuff at http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/index.html
Kevin,
you are biased and you currently assume (i.e. you are biased by an
currently source) that this research had stg to do with electronics
or systems.
We are all biased in general, but as far as scientific based, not a
chance. My opinions are based on simple and verifiable axioms.

This was a Phd study for the title of doctor in
medicine. I used the word "detector" loosely. I was talking about a
clinical procedure to look for non-obvious and non-expressed signs of
pain,
Oh...
rather than actual sensor equipment (as in thermocouple, Hall
probe ...). When you know a way to look for a set metabolic
manifestations that have been empirically related to pain,
This is not possible in principle. Tell me how a cat tells us that it is
feeling pain.
you can do
that with conventional equipment and you do not need to undertand how
the brain or neural nets function.
How the neural nets function is completely irrelevant. What maters is
*proving* that certain signals are directly related to a conscious
emotion.
It would be rather annoying if a
physician refused to serve your prescription of penicillin under the
pretext that he doesn t understand fully an down to molecular/quantum
level the interactions between host and germs.
You simply don't understand the issues involved. As I explained, it is
impossible to form a definition of pain, irrespective of what may or may
not physically causes it. There us no way to distinguish a well
programmed non conscious computer from a conscious individual. That is,
a machine can be made that to all intents and purposes duplicates the
output from a conscious individual, e.g. one feeling pain. Since this
duplicate machine can say, "I feel pain", there is no way of knowing if
in fact it does. Therefore the whole concept of a pain detector is
completely bogus. It is not possible, in principle. e.g.
http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/thehardproblem.html
If you (please) restrict the discussion to those premature foetuses
that are 7 month and older. Do you or don t you find that this
research had better been used to rationalise the prescription of pain
drugs in hospitals rather than efficiency of slaughterhouses ?
Irrelevant as there is no way to prove that such a machine can in
reality detect the pain of foetuses. What to you propose the featus do,
"oh, I say, that hurts". Get real dude.

Kevin Aylward
***@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
fogh
2004-07-20 16:26:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
Doesn't it bug you, the avenues open to making a living these
days? >>>
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
When you think of all the things that really need doing; and then
even serious work gets diverted. For example ...
A biomedical laser (portable in-office cataract surgery) ends up
being used as a high tech paint-ball on a tank.
A blood analyser ends up being used mainly for sports drugs or
other >>>'personnel' employee security clearance work.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
It doesn't matter how high tech it is, if the chimpanzee you give
it >>>to only uses it to make noises by banging it against rocks or
the >>>bars to it's cage.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
RL
The most typical example that heard of, around 10 years ago. Sorry
A brilliant research study that could result in reliable tools to
measure pain of premature babies or autists was made.
Yeah, sure....
Post by fogh
Cum Laude, et
coetera. The only problem is that no research lab, great
hospital, >
Post by Kevin Aylward
Not surprising. Such a claim is completely vacuous.
Post by fogh
or pharmaceutical company hired that researcher.
The only employer
that he/she found was a food-industrial, who got the technique
Who just want to appease the antivivisectionists, sure we can tell
when > the cow doesn't feel pain. Like, shit they can.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
using the pain indicators it was
possible to strip and streamline the slaughter procedure until the
point where pain was detected.
Cold comfort indeed for the cows. No chance in hell that this
system > does as claimed.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Since there is no definition of consciousness, nor anyway to
determine > if something has consciousness, it is simply impossible
to construct a > "pain detector". There simply is no way of
numerically knowing when a > foetus has enough neurons to constitute
a feeling of pain within the > current understanding of the brain.
One can only "reasonable" say that, > say prior to 3 months from
conception, there are essentially no relevant > neural connections,
so no pain. However, where a "reasonable" line may > be drawn after
his point, is completely arbitrary guesswork. >
Post by Kevin Aylward
Related stuff at http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/index.html
Kevin,
you are biased and you currently assume (i.e. you are biased by an
currently source) that this research had stg to do with electronics
or systems.
We are all biased in general, but as far as scientific based, not a
chance. My opinions are based on simple and verifiable axioms.
This was a Phd study for the title of doctor in
medicine. I used the word "detector" loosely. I was talking about a
clinical procedure to look for non-obvious and non-expressed signs of
pain,
Oh...
rather than actual sensor equipment (as in thermocouple, Hall
probe ...). When you know a way to look for a set metabolic
manifestations that have been empirically related to pain,
This is not possible in principle. Tell me how a cat tells us that it is
feeling pain.
you can do
that with conventional equipment and you do not need to undertand how
the brain or neural nets function.
How the neural nets function is completely irrelevant. What maters is
*proving* that certain signals are directly related to a conscious
emotion.
It would be rather annoying if a
physician refused to serve your prescription of penicillin under the
pretext that he doesn t understand fully an down to molecular/quantum
level the interactions between host and germs.
You simply don't understand the issues involved. As I explained, it is
impossible to form a definition of pain, irrespective of what may or may
not physically causes it. There us no way to distinguish a well
programmed non conscious computer from a conscious individual. That is,
a machine can be made that to all intents and purposes duplicates the
output from a conscious individual, e.g. one feeling pain. Since this
duplicate machine can say, "I feel pain", there is no way of knowing if
in fact it does. Therefore the whole concept of a pain detector is
completely bogus. It is not possible, in principle. e.g.
http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/thehardproblem.html
If you (please) restrict the discussion to those premature foetuses
that are 7 month and older. Do you or don t you find that this
research had better been used to rationalise the prescription of pain
drugs in hospitals rather than efficiency of slaughterhouses ?
Irrelevant as there is no way to prove that such a machine can in
reality detect the pain of foetuses. What to you propose the featus do,
"oh, I say, that hurts". Get real dude.
Medical practice, and scientific practice, are full of empirical procedures. I'm no epistemologist, but these are probably valid scientific methods. A scientific method should not require "understanding" (I would be even tempted to say that it rules it out), and a theory does not "explain" either.

Let me be more formal about what I guess was the method in this study (again: I only heard about it for a few minutes, and have no references.)
let there be
- a group A of people who you admit have the ability to suffer, and the ability to express that they suffer.
- a group B of people who you admit have the ability to suffer. ( I use the term "people" rather than "person". Put there "patients" or whatever groupname you like that can include preborn babies.)
- a the set P of physical manifestations that can be detected/measured by medical staff.

With statistical work on A, one can get correlations of P to pain. With clinical records, it is possible to verify that those correlations hold true for group B for every cause C (from "a set C of causes of pain" >8-)

By applying that method, one can create a "pain detector" that is good enough for medical purpose.
It does not adress the problem of a definition of pain, it does not deal with the problem of wether a foetus has conscience. Pain is here empirically defined by the persons in group A. Wether the foetus has conscience or not, the medical tool is reliable as long as those foetuses have the same physiological reaction to pain as, say, 10 month old babies. For all you know, there may even be a well programmed computer that sneaked into group A and participated in the implicit definition of pain.
In the end you have a good-enough "detector", which I would be glad to see happen and be developped in clinical practice before all those steaks I ate give me cancer. Not to mention the radiation dosis I receive from my CRT while flaming on c.c.c !
John Woodgate
2004-07-20 17:45:53 UTC
Permalink
I read in sci.electronics.design that fogh <***@skipthisandunder
scores.catena.nl> wrote (in <40fd47b6$0$88490$***@dreader15.news.xs
4all.nl>) about 'still very much offtopic ! (Re: One of My High
Post by fogh
Medical practice, and scientific practice, are full of empirical
procedures. I'm no epistemologist, but these are probably valid
scientific methods. A scientific method should not require
"understanding" (I would be even tempted to say that it rules it out),
and a theory does not "explain" either.
Let me be more formal about what I guess was the method in this study
(again: I only heard about it for a few minutes, and have no
references.)
let there be
- a group A of people who you admit have the ability to suffer, and the
ability to express that they suffer.
- a group B of people who you admit have the ability to suffer. ( I use
the term "people" rather than "person". Put there "patients" or whatever
groupname you like that can include preborn babies.)
- a the set P of physical manifestations that can be detected/measured by medical staff.
Indeed. Elevated breathing rate (possibly indicative of non-specific
stress) and adrenalin/nor-epinephrine levels in blood, and the
appearance of heat-shock protein, I believe.
Post by fogh
With statistical work on A, one can get correlations of P to pain. With
clinical records, it is possible to verify that those correlations hold
true for group B for every cause C (from "a set C of causes of pain"
8-)
Precisely.
Post by fogh
By applying that method, one can create a "pain detector" that is good
enough for medical purpose.
It does not adress the problem of a definition of pain, it does not deal
with the problem of wether a foetus has conscience. Pain is here
empirically defined by the persons in group A. Wether the foetus has
conscience or not, the medical tool is reliable as long as those
foetuses have the same physiological reaction to pain as, say, 10 month
old babies. For all you know, there may even be a well programmed
computer that sneaked into group A and participated in the implicit
definition of pain.
In the end you have a good-enough "detector", which I would be glad to
see happen and be developped in clinical practice before all those
steaks I ate give me cancer. Not to mention the radiation dosis I
receive from my CRT while flaming on c.c.c !
The human perception of pain is quite complex. There is a serious brain
condition in which the patient is aware of a pain but does not associate
it with him/herself.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
Kevin Aylward
2004-07-20 18:26:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by fogh
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
Doesn't it bug you, the avenues open to making a living these
days? >>>
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
When you think of all the things that really need doing; and then
even serious work gets diverted. For example ...
A biomedical laser (portable in-office cataract surgery) ends up
being used as a high tech paint-ball on a tank.
A blood analyser ends up being used mainly for sports drugs or
other >>>'personnel' employee security clearance work.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
It doesn't matter how high tech it is, if the chimpanzee you give
it >>>to only uses it to make noises by banging it against rocks or
the >>>bars to it's cage.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
RL
The most typical example that heard of, around 10 years ago. Sorry
A brilliant research study that could result in reliable tools to
measure pain of premature babies or autists was made.
Yeah, sure....
Post by fogh
Cum Laude, et
coetera. The only problem is that no research lab, great
hospital, >
Post by Kevin Aylward
Not surprising. Such a claim is completely vacuous.
Post by fogh
or pharmaceutical company hired that researcher.
The only employer
that he/she found was a food-industrial, who got the technique
Who just want to appease the antivivisectionists, sure we can tell
when > the cow doesn't feel pain. Like, shit they can.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
using the pain indicators it was
possible to strip and streamline the slaughter procedure until the
point where pain was detected.
Cold comfort indeed for the cows. No chance in hell that this
system > does as claimed.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Since there is no definition of consciousness, nor anyway to
determine > if something has consciousness, it is simply impossible
to construct a > "pain detector". There simply is no way of
numerically knowing when a > foetus has enough neurons to constitute
a feeling of pain within the > current understanding of the brain.
One can only "reasonable" say that, > say prior to 3 months from
conception, there are essentially no relevant > neural connections,
so no pain. However, where a "reasonable" line may > be drawn after
his point, is completely arbitrary guesswork. >
Post by Kevin Aylward
Related stuff at http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/index.html
Kevin,
you are biased and you currently assume (i.e. you are biased by an
currently source) that this research had stg to do with electronics
or systems.
We are all biased in general, but as far as scientific based, not a
chance. My opinions are based on simple and verifiable axioms.
This was a Phd study for the title of doctor in
medicine. I used the word "detector" loosely. I was talking about a
clinical procedure to look for non-obvious and non-expressed signs
of pain,
Oh...
rather than actual sensor equipment (as in thermocouple, Hall
probe ...). When you know a way to look for a set metabolic
manifestations that have been empirically related to pain,
This is not possible in principle. Tell me how a cat tells us that
it is feeling pain.
you can do
that with conventional equipment and you do not need to undertand
how the brain or neural nets function.
How the neural nets function is completely irrelevant. What maters is
*proving* that certain signals are directly related to a conscious
emotion.
It would be rather annoying if a
physician refused to serve your prescription of penicillin under the
pretext that he doesn t understand fully an down to
molecular/quantum level the interactions between host and germs.
You simply don't understand the issues involved. As I explained, it
is impossible to form a definition of pain, irrespective of what may
or may not physically causes it. There us no way to distinguish a
well programmed non conscious computer from a conscious individual.
That is, a machine can be made that to all intents and purposes
duplicates the output from a conscious individual, e.g. one feeling
pain. Since this duplicate machine can say, "I feel pain", there is
no way of knowing if in fact it does. Therefore the whole concept of
a pain detector is completely bogus. It is not possible, in
principle. e.g.
http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/thehardproblem.html
If you (please) restrict the discussion to those premature foetuses
that are 7 month and older. Do you or don t you find that this
research had better been used to rationalise the prescription of
pain drugs in hospitals rather than efficiency of slaughterhouses ?
Irrelevant as there is no way to prove that such a machine can in
reality detect the pain of foetuses. What to you propose the featus
do, "oh, I say, that hurts". Get real dude.
Medical practice, and scientific practice, are full of empirical
procedures. I'm no epistemologist, but these are probably valid
scientific methods. A scientific method should not require
"understanding" (I would be even tempted to say that it rules it
out), and a theory does not "explain" either.
You *still* miss the fundermental point.
Post by fogh
Let me be more formal about what I guess was the method in this study
(again: I only heard about it for a few minutes, and have no
references.) let there be
- a group A of people who you admit have the ability to suffer,
{snip 101 stuff}

Sure, we can make an "reasonable" correlation between different speaking
individuals in similar circumstances and obtain a fair guess on pain
verses output. We rationally make the assumption that we are all
conscious and have similar responses to the same stimuli. This fails
completely in setting up a control with foetuses for which *no* controls
can be established whatsoever. There is simply no way to know whether or
not a foetuses experiences pain or not. It can't tell us. Its that
simple.

We simply do not have an understanding of how the level of pain is made
"aware" to the conscience "mind" as the brain develops. One can argue
that a foetus doesn't experience pain at say, 6 months, or we could
argue that it does. There is simply no way to tell. In fact, some
philosophers claim that a born baby doesn't feel pain, ant that it takes
months before they feel pain "as we do". Ok, I don't hold to that view,
but the point is a valid one. There is no way to prove conclusively
otherwise. This is because consciousnes is fundamentally not derivable
from the laws of physics. You are under the false illusion that the
argument is about understanding the physical mechanics of how we feel
pain. This issue is simply not relevant to the discussion. We cannot
define pain. Without a definition of the basic variables, science can
say *absolutely* nothing about the matter.

Kevin Aylward
***@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
fogh
2004-07-22 09:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
Doesn't it bug you, the avenues open to making a living these
days? >>>
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
When you think of all the things that really need doing; and then
even serious work gets diverted. For example ...
A biomedical laser (portable in-office cataract surgery) ends up
being used as a high tech paint-ball on a tank.
A blood analyser ends up being used mainly for sports drugs or
other >>>'personnel' employee security clearance work.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
It doesn't matter how high tech it is, if the chimpanzee you give
it >>>to only uses it to make noises by banging it against rocks or
the >>>bars to it's cage.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
RL
The most typical example that heard of, around 10 years ago. Sorry
A brilliant research study that could result in reliable tools to
measure pain of premature babies or autists was made.
Yeah, sure....
Post by fogh
Cum Laude, et
coetera. The only problem is that no research lab, great
hospital, >
Post by Kevin Aylward
Not surprising. Such a claim is completely vacuous.
Post by fogh
or pharmaceutical company hired that researcher.
The only employer
that he/she found was a food-industrial, who got the technique
Who just want to appease the antivivisectionists, sure we can tell
when > the cow doesn't feel pain. Like, shit they can.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Post by fogh
using the pain indicators it was
possible to strip and streamline the slaughter procedure until the
point where pain was detected.
Cold comfort indeed for the cows. No chance in hell that this
system > does as claimed.
Post by Kevin Aylward
Since there is no definition of consciousness, nor anyway to
determine > if something has consciousness, it is simply impossible
to construct a > "pain detector". There simply is no way of
numerically knowing when a > foetus has enough neurons to constitute
a feeling of pain within the > current understanding of the brain.
One can only "reasonable" say that, > say prior to 3 months from
conception, there are essentially no relevant > neural connections,
so no pain. However, where a "reasonable" line may > be drawn after
his point, is completely arbitrary guesswork. >
Post by Kevin Aylward
Related stuff at http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/index.html
Kevin,
you are biased and you currently assume (i.e. you are biased by an
currently source) that this research had stg to do with electronics
or systems.
We are all biased in general, but as far as scientific based, not a
chance. My opinions are based on simple and verifiable axioms.
This was a Phd study for the title of doctor in
medicine. I used the word "detector" loosely. I was talking about a
clinical procedure to look for non-obvious and non-expressed signs
of pain,
Oh...
rather than actual sensor equipment (as in thermocouple, Hall
probe ...). When you know a way to look for a set metabolic
manifestations that have been empirically related to pain,
This is not possible in principle. Tell me how a cat tells us that
it is feeling pain.
you can do
that with conventional equipment and you do not need to undertand
how the brain or neural nets function.
How the neural nets function is completely irrelevant. What maters is
*proving* that certain signals are directly related to a conscious
emotion.
It would be rather annoying if a
physician refused to serve your prescription of penicillin under the
pretext that he doesn t understand fully an down to
molecular/quantum level the interactions between host and germs.
You simply don't understand the issues involved. As I explained, it
is impossible to form a definition of pain, irrespective of what may
or may not physically causes it. There us no way to distinguish a
well programmed non conscious computer from a conscious individual.
That is, a machine can be made that to all intents and purposes
duplicates the output from a conscious individual, e.g. one feeling
pain. Since this duplicate machine can say, "I feel pain", there is
no way of knowing if in fact it does. Therefore the whole concept of
a pain detector is completely bogus. It is not possible, in
principle. e.g.
http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/thehardproblem.html
If you (please) restrict the discussion to those premature foetuses
that are 7 month and older. Do you or don t you find that this
research had better been used to rationalise the prescription of
pain drugs in hospitals rather than efficiency of slaughterhouses ?
Irrelevant as there is no way to prove that such a machine can in
reality detect the pain of foetuses. What to you propose the featus
do, "oh, I say, that hurts". Get real dude.
Medical practice, and scientific practice, are full of empirical
procedures. I'm no epistemologist, but these are probably valid
scientific methods. A scientific method should not require
"understanding" (I would be even tempted to say that it rules it
out), and a theory does not "explain" either.
You *still* miss the fundermental point.
Post by fogh
Let me be more formal about what I guess was the method in this study
(again: I only heard about it for a few minutes, and have no
references.) let there be
- a group A of people who you admit have the ability to suffer,
{snip 101 stuff}
Sure, we can make an "reasonable" correlation between different speaking
individuals in similar circumstances and obtain a fair guess on pain
verses output. We rationally make the assumption that we are all
conscious and have similar responses to the same stimuli. This fails
completely in setting up a control with foetuses for which *no* controls
can be established whatsoever. There is simply no way to know whether or
not a foetuses experiences pain or not. It can't tell us. Its that
simple.
We simply do not have an understanding of how the level of pain is made
"aware" to the conscience "mind" as the brain develops. One can argue
that a foetus doesn't experience pain at say, 6 months, or we could
argue that it does. There is simply no way to tell. In fact, some
philosophers claim that a born baby doesn't feel pain, ant that it takes
months before they feel pain "as we do". Ok, I don't hold to that view,
but the point is a valid one. There is no way to prove conclusively
otherwise. This is because consciousnes is fundamentally not derivable
from the laws of physics. You are under the false illusion that the
argument is about understanding the physical mechanics of how we feel
pain. This issue is simply not relevant to the discussion. We cannot
define pain. Without a definition of the basic variables, science can
say *absolutely* nothing about the matter.
There is an argument about understanding: you state that understanding is necessary before one can come to a proof, a defendable thesis. I would rather say that the a demand of research is to be able to deal with what is not understood. A study that comes from a situation where "pain" has no metaphysical definition and no clinical definition, and arrives at a point where there is at least a clinical definition is AOK in my book. Generally speaking, I would not think that science provides "understanding" or "explanations". Being able to follow a theory, read some specific formalism an jargon, or assess wether a theory has the required properties to be scientific (cartesian reasoning, refutability, etc.) do not bring "understanding". ( It a nice kick sometimes though )

It has been probably stg like 70 years since physicists have agreed that the question of conscience is not relevant to their theories, i.e. physics theories can hold independently of the outcome of philosophical questions of conscience, reality, existence. It is a feelgood fairytale we tell kids that physics explains reality, and that it has thus a strong grasp on technology. But try saying that to a physicist and you ll be confronted to a grin and a long silence, at best. And conversely physics theories have nothing to say about those questions. So you can hold assured that I did not at anytime believe that there is a mechanically provable relation between pain and physical manifestation. The relation between pain and metabolic manifestations that can be defended by a medical thesis is not a "mechanical" relation. The relation does involves conscience: the conscience of all individuals from so-called group A and the conscience of the Phd student. So, indeed, you can not f
rom such a study create a machine
that detects pain, or a machine that calculates the dosis of opium to give a preborn. Even if you put a well programmed computer in that machine. But you can create a medical procedure, since the procedure involves the conscience of the medical staff.

Medical practice is not too concerned with conscience either. Who ever saw veterinarian having a big dilemma on prescribing a painkiller " Oh, no. Wait ... I can t prescribe these, Fifi is not an alter-ego and it is not proven that it has conscience. OK, lets tear off this slip and put more expensive antibiotics instead."
Hence, I still _miss_ the point and so far I keep accepting that a doctor in medicine studies, treats, influences, or causes pain without understanding what it is, and still be considered a scientist.

BTW, why do you find conscience to be so closely related to pain ?
Kevin Aylward
2004-07-22 10:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by fogh
Post by Kevin Aylward
{snip 101 stuff}
Sure, we can make an "reasonable" correlation between different
speaking individuals in similar circumstances and obtain a fair
guess on pain verses output. We rationally make the assumption that
we are all conscious and have similar responses to the same stimuli.
This fails completely in setting up a control with foetuses for
which *no* controls can be established whatsoever. There is simply
no way to know whether or not a foetuses experiences pain or not. It
can't tell us. Its that simple.
We simply do not have an understanding of how the level of pain is
made "aware" to the conscience "mind" as the brain develops. One can
argue that a foetus doesn't experience pain at say, 6 months, or we
could argue that it does. There is simply no way to tell. In fact,
some philosophers claim that a born baby doesn't feel pain, ant that
it takes months before they feel pain "as we do". Ok, I don't hold
to that view, but the point is a valid one. There is no way to prove
conclusively otherwise. This is because consciousnes is
fundamentally not derivable from the laws of physics. You are under
the false illusion that the argument is about understanding the
physical mechanics of how we feel pain. This issue is simply not
relevant to the discussion. We cannot define pain. Without a
definition of the basic variables, science can say *absolutely*
nothing about the matter.
There is an argument about understanding: you state that
understanding is necessary before one can come to a proof, a
defendable thesis. I would rather say that the a demand of research
is to be able to deal with what is not understood. A study that comes
from a situation where "pain" has no metaphysical definition and no
clinical definition, and arrives at a point where there is at least a
clinical definition is AOK in my book.
And so it would for me too, unfortunately, such a definition would be
arbitrary, and therefore meaningless.

Convince me that you actually hurt when I kick you in the balls. All I
hear from you are the screams and whimpering. This proves nothing.
Post by fogh
Generally speaking, I would
not think that science provides "understanding" or "explanations".
Science provides explanations, essentially by definition.
Post by fogh
Being able to follow a theory, read some specific formalism an
jargon, or assess wether a theory has the required properties to be
scientific (cartesian reasoning, refutability, etc.) do not bring
"understanding". ( It a nice kick sometimes though )
I agree. Understanding and explanations are not the same. An explanation
may be considered the black and white description e.g. mathematical
equations that make predictions based on axioms. "Understanding" is that
*emotion* we feel when we go Eureka!
Post by fogh
It has been probably stg like 70 years since physicists have agreed
that the question of conscience is not relevant to their theories,
i.e. physics theories can hold independently of the outcome of
philosophical questions of conscience, reality, existence.
Agreed.
Post by fogh
It is a
feelgood fairytale we tell kids that physics explains reality, and
that it has thus a strong grasp on technology.
Physics does explains reality, by making explanations based on arbitrary
axioms. The axioms, of course are not explainable.

"Physical concepts are free creations of the human mind, and are not,
however it may seem, uniquely determined by the external world." -
Einstein.

For example, we *invent* the concept of mass. We then "explain" motion
with reference to that invention. In principle, we could invent some
other quantity and have different explanations.
Post by fogh
But try saying that to
a physicist and you ll be confronted to a grin and a long silence, at
best. And conversely physics theories have nothing to say about those
questions. So you can hold assured that I did not at anytime believe
that there is a mechanically provable relation between pain and
physical manifestation.
Agreed. There is no *provable* relation between the electro-chemical
construction of the brain with emotions such as pain. However, emotions
are indeed only a sole result of such physical construction. This is an
example of a Goedal Statement. A relation that is true, but not provable
or derivable.
Post by fogh
The relation between pain and metabolic
manifestations that can be defended by a medical thesis is not a
"mechanical" relation. The relation does involves conscience: the
conscience of all individuals from so-called group A and the
conscience of the Phd student. So, indeed, you can not f rom such a
study create a machine that detects pain, or a machine that
calculates the dosis of opium to give a preborn. Even if you put a
well programmed computer in that machine. But you can create a
medical procedure, since the procedure involves the conscience of the
medical staff.
Yes, but not one for foetus that has meaning. There is no way to set up
the control system. We simply do not know whether or not 6 month
foetuses feel pain at all. They cant tell us. Any result is pure
supposition.
Post by fogh
Medical practice is not too concerned with conscience either.
It is concerned with pain, which is de-facto consciousness.
Post by fogh
Who
ever saw veterinarian having a big dilemma on prescribing a
painkiller " Oh, no. Wait ... I can t prescribe these, Fifi is not an
alter-ego and it is not proven that it has conscience. OK, lets tear
off this slip and put more expensive antibiotics instead." Hence, I
still _miss_ the point and so far I keep accepting that a doctor in
medicine studies, treats, influences, or causes pain without
understanding what it is, and still be considered a scientist.
My issue is regarding situations where we cannot with any reasonable
doubt conclude that something feels pain or not. Most "older"
individuals can mutually agree that a kick in the balls hurts. We can
discuss it such that, even without absolute proof, we can reasonable
conclude that there is no "reasonable" doubt. For a 6 month foetus this
is not possible.
Post by fogh
BTW, why do you find conscience to be so closely related to pain ?
Its trivial. Without conscience awareness there can be no pain. Period.
Pain is something that is directly attributed to conscience awareness.
Consciousness is the ability to "feel" emotions. Its essentially a
definition of conscience, although of course, a circular one. One cannot
define emotions (pain, laughter etc) without introducing consciousness.
If we were not conscious, pain would have zero meaning. That is why
consciousness is not derivable from the laws of physics. There is no
independent way of defining it without referring to itself in its
definition (http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/consciousness.html)

Kevin Aylward
***@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
Activ8
2004-07-17 17:25:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by fogh
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
Doesn't it bug you, the avenues open to making a living these days?
When you think of all the things that really need doing; and then even
serious work gets diverted. For example ...
A biomedical laser (portable in-office cataract surgery) ends up
being used as a high tech paint-ball on a tank.
A blood analyser ends up being used mainly for sports drugs or other
'personnel' employee security clearance work.
It doesn't matter how high tech it is, if the chimpanzee you give it
to only uses it to make noises by banging it against rocks or the bars
to it's cage.
RL
The most typical example that heard of, around 10 years ago. Sorry but I
A brilliant research study that could result in reliable tools to
measure pain of premature babies or autists was made. Cum Laude, et coetera.
The only problem is that no research lab, great hospital, or
pharmaceutical company hired that researcher. The only employer that
he/she found was a food-industrial, who got the technique applied to the
slaughtering of cows: using the pain indicators it was possible to strip
and streamline the slaughter procedure until the point where pain was
detected.
Well, something good still came of it, maybe. An old partner told me
that when the slaughter cows, the have a contraption that drive a
rod through the brain rapidly so the cow dies fast and can't pump
adrenaline into the blood, thereby making the meat tough and gamey.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
Dennis M. O'Connor
2004-07-18 13:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Activ8
An old partner told me
that when the slaughter cows, the have a contraption that drive a
rod through the brain rapidly so the cow dies fast and can't pump
adrenaline into the blood, thereby making the meat tough and gamey.
1) Watch your cross-posting

2) IIRC, not exactly. In the US, cows are slaughtered with a "captive bolt
gun",
which is typically placed in a particular spot (where the skull is weak)
between the eyes of the cow and hits the skull with tremedous impact.
This sends a shock wave through the brain, causing massive brain trauma
and unconsciousness; the animal stops breathing, but the heart continues
to pump.
Some guns penetrate the skull, but some less-messy designs do not: it is
the
shock that does the killing, not the penetration. After trauma-induced
brain-death
the cow is then hoisted by its back feet and its throat is cut. Since the
heart is still
pumping at this point, the blood flows quickly out of the cow; it is
important
to drain as much blood as possible from the carcass.

The quality of beef is not affected by adreniline; however, this is a
problem with pigs. If a pig gets frightened before slaughter, the
meat will be of lower quality.

( My wife took a meat slughtering course in college: live animal to
commercial boxed cuts. )
--
Dennis M. O'Connor ***@primenet.com
Brian Hance
2004-07-19 18:07:23 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:57:46 -0700, "Dennis M. O'Connor"
Post by Dennis M. O'Connor
( My wife took a meat slughtering course in college: live animal to
commercial boxed cuts. )
And I thought the most esoteric class on a college schedule I'd ever
seen was Bass Fishing 101.

This had to have been in the Midwest.

--
Brian Hance
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Constantly talking is not necessarily communication."
from ETERNAL SUNSHINE OF THE SPOTLESS MIND
John Larkin
2004-07-17 17:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
Doesn't it bug you, the avenues open to making a living these days?
When you think of all the things that really need doing; and then even
serious work gets diverted.
Yup. The "killer ap" for technology is now distributing music, so the
world's youth can keep themselves numbed 24 hours a day. Long-haul
bandwidth, once so valuable, now transports terabytes/second of porn.
And the primary use for compute power on Earth is to play mega-violent
video games. I'd guess that one good AGP card has more compute power
than existed on the entire planet in 1965.

John
Jim Thompson
2004-07-17 17:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Larkin
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:04:46 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
Doesn't it bug you, the avenues open to making a living these days?
When you think of all the things that really need doing; and then even
serious work gets diverted. For example ...
A biomedical laser (portable in-office cataract surgery) ends up
being used as a high tech paint-ball on a tank.
A blood analyser ends up being used mainly for sports drugs or other
'personnel' employee security clearance work.
It doesn't matter how high tech it is, if the chimpanzee you give it
to only uses it to make noises by banging it against rocks or the bars
to it's cage.
RL
The big money has always been in consumer products.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
legg
2004-07-18 17:00:56 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:28:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by legg
It doesn't matter how high tech it is, if the chimpanzee you give it
to only uses it to make noises by banging it against rocks or the bars
to it's cage.
RL
The big money has always been in consumer products.
Electronics is, admittedly, a rather round-about way of doing anything
of signifigance.

I keep forgeting

RL
John Larkin
2004-07-18 18:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by legg
Electronics is, admittedly, a rather round-about way of doing anything
of signifigance.
But there's hardly anything of significance these days that doesn't
involve electronics. You can hardly imagine a scientific experiment
any more that doesn't use electronics and computers to manage the
experiment and gather the data.

John
legg
2004-07-18 19:14:12 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:28:12 -0700, John Larkin
Post by John Larkin
Post by legg
Electronics is, admittedly, a rather round-about way of doing anything
of signifigance.
But there's hardly anything of significance these days that doesn't
involve electronics. You can hardly imagine a scientific experiment
any more that doesn't use electronics and computers to manage the
experiment and gather the data.
Yeah, and electronic design is only a skill set - a tool. Without some
other kind of qualifications, you're not likely to end up being the
boffin determining how it's to be used.

At least I didn't wake up this morning with the urge to preach
hell-fire, damnation and paranoia. Tomorrow, who knows. There, but for
news2020, go us all.

RL
Andrew VK3BFA
2004-07-18 06:07:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
Wow, what a lovely piece of engineering - always suspected you were a
smart bastard! The big question - how can the rest of us hack it into
something useful that wasnt remotely envisioned(SP) in the design
brief and subsequent product?
73 de VK3BFA Andrew
Tim Wescott
2004-07-18 06:11:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew VK3BFA
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
Wow, what a lovely piece of engineering - always suspected you were a
smart bastard! The big question - how can the rest of us hack it into
something useful that wasnt remotely envisioned(SP) in the design
brief and subsequent product?
73 de VK3BFA Andrew
For that matter, how long before they come back to you for an
internet-enabled air freshener with it's own web page, broadcasting the
state of the scent reservoir over 802.11 (for $0.10 a pop, of course).
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Jim Thompson
2004-07-18 16:21:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew VK3BFA
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
Wow, what a lovely piece of engineering - always suspected you were a
smart bastard!
Actually that device is one of my most trivial designs.

What is unusual is that a design of mine got publicity in such a way
that I can even acknowledge I did it.

Most of my work is quite more complex, yet immersed in things I can
say nothing about.
Post by Andrew VK3BFA
The big question - how can the rest of us hack it into
something useful that wasnt remotely envisioned(SP) in the design
brief and subsequent product?
73 de VK3BFA Andrew
I didn't do the board design so I have no idea of how it ended up
being laid out. A friend of mine at Fitch sent me the URL or I
wouldn't even yet be aware that the product had been released.

(Consumer products of this sort are usually released to just a single
test market until they are sure that the product will sell in large
quantities.)

Buy lots of them ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Andrew VK3BFA
2004-07-19 00:48:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Andrew VK3BFA
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
Wow, what a lovely piece of engineering - always suspected you were a
smart bastard!
Actually that device is one of my most trivial designs.
What is unusual is that a design of mine got publicity in such a way
that I can even acknowledge I did it.
Most of my work is quite more complex, yet immersed in things I can
say nothing about.
Thats the fascinating part - to be able to think laterally enough to
do something like this, and come up with a design cheap enough to mass
produce for the domestic consumer market. The weird thing is, you will
probably be remembered for this consumer toy rather than the more
interesting and useful esoteric stuff - BTW, had no idea you designed
the 1488/1489 - thank you for a useful chipset.
73 de VK3BFA Andrew
Activ8
2004-07-19 04:21:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Andrew VK3BFA
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
Wow, what a lovely piece of engineering - always suspected you were a
smart bastard!
Actually that device is one of my most trivial designs.
What is unusual is that a design of mine got publicity in such a way
that I can even acknowledge I did it.
Most of my work is quite more complex, yet immersed in things I can
say nothing about.
Post by Andrew VK3BFA
The big question - how can the rest of us hack it into
something useful that wasnt remotely envisioned(SP) in the design
brief and subsequent product?
73 de VK3BFA Andrew
I didn't do the board design so I have no idea of how it ended up
being laid out. A friend of mine at Fitch sent me the URL or I
wouldn't even yet be aware that the product had been released.
(Consumer products of this sort are usually released to just a single
test market until they are sure that the product will sell in large
quantities.)
Buy lots of them ;-)
...Jim Thompson
I suspect that the little gadget will sell. I know vendors at the
state fair that rake in big bucks on total crap merchandise. Anyone
that uses those plug-ins might upgrade. I'm assuming the timed
release of the scent as opposed to constant exposure to heat and air
would be economic. 6 mo service life and only one cell, you said?
That's good IMO. See? Even I could sell those things and that's only
2 selling points :)

I know people that will buy damned near any gadget they see.

Don't take me to a tool store, electronic store, etc. I'm like a kid
in a candy store.
--
Best Regards,
Mike
Jim Thompson
2004-07-19 16:44:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Activ8
Post by Jim Thompson
Post by Andrew VK3BFA
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
Wow, what a lovely piece of engineering - always suspected you were a
smart bastard!
Actually that device is one of my most trivial designs.
What is unusual is that a design of mine got publicity in such a way
that I can even acknowledge I did it.
Most of my work is quite more complex, yet immersed in things I can
say nothing about.
Post by Andrew VK3BFA
The big question - how can the rest of us hack it into
something useful that wasnt remotely envisioned(SP) in the design
brief and subsequent product?
73 de VK3BFA Andrew
I didn't do the board design so I have no idea of how it ended up
being laid out. A friend of mine at Fitch sent me the URL or I
wouldn't even yet be aware that the product had been released.
(Consumer products of this sort are usually released to just a single
test market until they are sure that the product will sell in large
quantities.)
Buy lots of them ;-)
...Jim Thompson
I suspect that the little gadget will sell. I know vendors at the
state fair that rake in big bucks on total crap merchandise. Anyone
that uses those plug-ins might upgrade. I'm assuming the timed
release of the scent as opposed to constant exposure to heat and air
would be economic. 6 mo service life and only one cell, you said?
That's good IMO. See? Even I could sell those things and that's only
2 selling points :)
I know people that will buy damned near any gadget they see.
Don't take me to a tool store, electronic store, etc. I'm like a kid
in a candy store.
The advantage is that it actually **atomizes**, which allows much
better dispersal than the heated varieties, which tend to have "hot
spots" of odor :-(

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Michael A. Covington
2004-08-06 00:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Thompson
One of My High Technology Contributions to Microchip Design...
http://www.glade.com/wisp.asp
...Jim Thompson
You will live forever in infamy! :) :) :)

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